VAT question for toiminimi

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dflorin
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VAT question for toiminimi

Post by dflorin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:13 pm

Is a toiminimi bookkeeping (bookkeeping by simple entry - yksinkertainen kirjanpito) possible so that for example I can register all my invoices from period January-May only in June, and I will pay / deduct the VAT on that month only, meaning that I will do the "valvontailmoitus" (ALV-ilmoitus) only in June, covering all the ins/outs from January - May ((Jan-May VAT = 0 because I have registered no invoices))?

Or how much can I delay registering an invoice in the bookkeeping (how many months)?

Thanks in advance,
Florin


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VAT question for toiminimi

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Upphew
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Upphew » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:51 pm

As far as I know, you cannot delay any payments to the taxman, without consequences that is. And you must always do the "valvontailmoitus" even if you don't have anything to pay. See: http://vero.fi/nc/doc/download.asp?id=3516;67701

As for how long can you delay registering invoice... how long can you go without the money that invoice is going to make? :)
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Hank W.
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Hank W. » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:15 am

dflorin wrote: Or how much can I delay registering an invoice in the bookkeeping (how many months)?
As much as you want, but hen the tax office takes "assesment taxation" so you pay taxes on what they think, and not what you make. And then you do not want to be cute with the tax office any more.
Cheers, Hank W.
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karel
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by karel » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:47 am

You've got a stack of papers from the tax office, a couple of blanks with just some tables, but 12 of them with a month on it. You didn't get them to save them up for a half year payment. If veromies wanted you to pay every half year, you would've got half of the amount of papers.
Listen to Hank... He's serious... Don't mess with the veromies.

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dflorin
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by dflorin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:21 am

Hank W. wrote:
dflorin wrote: Or how much can I delay registering an invoice in the bookkeeping (how many months)?
As much as you want, but hen the tax office takes "assesment taxation" so you pay taxes on what they think, and not what you make. And then you do not want to be cute with the tax office any more.
Well, are you referring to the fact that they would make me pay some VAT in advance? Has not happened, they don't assess VAT taxes... As for the income tax, that is calculated when I get the tax card, based on what I declare. They have no visibility on my incomes from the toiminimi until I register them in the books or until they start digging my accounts.

My issue here is not about how to go around the taxing system, but to avoid unnecessary VAT payments, in case the VAT from sales go over the VAT from expenditures. Of course the state will return it to me (much later though...) So is it legal to delay registering of invoices to a later month?

Thanks for your opinions.
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exupery
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by exupery » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:37 am

dflorin wrote: My issue here is not about how to go around the taxing system, but to avoid unnecessary VAT payments, in case the VAT from sales go over the VAT from expenditures. Of course the state will return it to me (much later though...) So is it legal to delay registering of invoices to a later month?

Thanks for your opinions.
The rule is quit easy, if the invoice payment is done let's say in June, then you need to transfer the corresponding VAT (minus VAT from expenses) to the state the 15th of august. You can not delay this payment. If you do so, you will need to pay some interest for each day between the 15th and the actual payment date.
in case the VAT from sales go over the VAT from expenditures
Yes this is the case if you want to make money out of your business... If it is the opposite (you spend more than you earn),then the deficit in VAT is deducted from next month VAT payment. If you can "prove" than you will anyway have only a deficit of VAT during the year, I think you can ask for an early payment of the deficit. It is the case if for example all of your clients are from EU(in this case you do not charge any VAT but you have expenses with Finnish VAT).
Of course the state will return it to me
You get back (if you ask for it, and at the beginning of the following year) 100% of the payed VAT if your turnover is less than 8500 per year (i think) and only a part of it if your turnover is between 8500 and 22500
see http://www.vero.fi/nc/doc/download.asp?id=3082;27551

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dflorin
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by dflorin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:32 pm

exupery wrote:
dflorin wrote: My issue here is not about how to go around the taxing system, but to avoid unnecessary VAT payments, in case the VAT from sales go over the VAT from expenditures. Of course the state will return it to me (much later though...) So is it legal to delay registering of invoices to a later month?

Thanks for your opinions.
The rule is quit easy, if the invoice payment is done let's say in June, then you need to transfer the corresponding VAT (minus VAT from expenses) to the state the 15th of august. You can not delay this payment. If you do so, you will need to pay some interest for each day between the 15th and the actual payment date.
in case the VAT from sales go over the VAT from expenditures
Yes this is the case if you want to make money out of your business... If it is the opposite (you spend more than you earn),then the deficit in VAT is deducted from next month VAT payment. If you can "prove" than you will anyway have only a deficit of VAT during the year, I think you can ask for an early payment of the deficit. It is the case if for example all of your clients are from EU(in this case you do not charge any VAT but you have expenses with Finnish VAT).
Of course the state will return it to me
You get back (if you ask for it, and at the beginning of the following year) 100% of the payed VAT if your turnover is less than 8500 per year (i think) and only a part of it if your turnover is between 8500 and 22500
see http://www.vero.fi/nc/doc/download.asp?id=3082;27551
Thanks for your comments.

The thing is that I am always in deficit with VAT, because I buy with 22% VAT and I sell with only 8% VAT. So can I still claim all the 8% VAT (due to be paid to the state) even if later I got to VAT deficit due to some purchase with 22% VAT?
Example:
Sells of 1000 EUR, VAT 8% => VAT = 80 EUR
Buys of 2000 EUR, VAT 22% => VAT = 440 EUR
VAT deficit is 360 EUR => I will get them back at the end of the year. Can I get more back if turnover less than 8500?

Also, can I still delay paying VAT in the first months (for example by registering in April the invoice which was issued in February, thus having it in the "valvontailmoitus" done on June 15th - for April), because in April I made a big 22% payment and my VAT got to deficit - this was my original question. If I had paid the VAT from February earlier (by registering the invoice in February), the state would need to return more VAT.

Thanks.
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exupery
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by exupery » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:09 pm

dflorin wrote: VAT deficit is 360 EUR => I will get them back at the end of the year.
Or the following month if you need to pay back 360 or more VAT for the next month.
Can I get more back if turnover less than 8500?
what do you mean by "to get back more" ?... When you deal with the tax office, usually you can never get back more ! :D
Also, can I still delay paying VAT in the first months (for example by registering in April the invoice which was issued in February, thus having it in the "valvontailmoitus" done on June 15th - for April), because in April I made a big 22% payment and my VAT got to deficit - this was my original question. If I had paid the VAT from February earlier (by registering the invoice in February), the state would need to return more VAT.
Whatever will happen during March or April, if you invoice was issued and paid in February, then you need to enter it in your book for February, and pay the corresponding VAT in April. Basically, the tax office can own you VAT but not the opposite !

Btw, do you know you can submit your VAT online for free from:
http://www.tyvi.fi/en/index.html -> KATSO login (LiteTYVI)

For getting a Katso ID for free:
http://www.vero.fi/nc/viewarticle.asp?a ... nguage=ENG

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dflorin
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by dflorin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:13 pm

exupery wrote: what do you mean by "to get back more" ?... When you deal with the tax office, usually you can never get back more ! :D
I meant, do I only get back the deficit, or can I get back the whole VAT?
exupery wrote: Btw, do you know you can submit your VAT online for free from:
http://www.tyvi.fi/en/index.html -> KATSO login (LiteTYVI)

For getting a Katso ID for free:
http://www.vero.fi/nc/viewarticle.asp?a ... nguage=ENG
Cheers, I have been using the online submission of VAT for over 2 years now.

Thanks a lot,
Florin.
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Charles Monk
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Charles Monk » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:06 pm

We do this. We charge zero ALV on the invoices we issue. All our Finnish purchasing is done at 22% or whatever it is here. Every six months or so, our accountant submits a claim for the ALV paid on our purchases, and they repay it all to us. I think we also get a refund of the various sales taxes paid on expenditure elsewhere in the EU (MOMS, IVA, VAT, etc.) but this is not so clear to me.

It's a 100% refund, with interest paid. The only problem you might have is cashflow. They take a long time to agree the claim and make the payment (several months). Sometimes we're owed a lot of money, but I just think of it as a government saving scheme.

I guess you can claim once a month, but we make ours less frequently to reduce the admin work. So I can buy something in July 2007, make the claim in January 2008 and get the ALV refund in May 2008. The interest is paid only for the period since the claim, so don't get compensated for July-January.

HTH, CM.

Rosamunda
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Rosamunda » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:11 pm

Charles Monk wrote: We charge zero ALV on the invoices we issue.
Is this because all your invoices are for goods and services shipped outside the EU, or are you selling stuff in Finland which is zero-rated VAT or is it because your annual turnover is less than 8500€ ???

Not everyone has the possibility of raising invoices with zero VAT. It's not a choice thing.
Just wanted to clarify :wink:

Charles Monk
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Charles Monk » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:04 pm

Happy to clarify.

It's because we supply IT services to customers outside Finland, but within the EU. You don't charge ALV on that.

This guy is paying 22% and collecting 8%. (Isn't this the Finnish ALV rate for taxis?). I'm paying 22% and collecting 0%, so I thought our situation would make for an extremely clear example of how this works.

CM.

PS. Today's oh-so-wacky vero anomaly... I used to buy all my software from Sweden to help my cash flow.

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dflorin
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by dflorin » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:44 am

Was just browsing this older thread.
The VAT system has changed so that nowadays I can only submit it once a year. Such a great decision by the authorities!

Cheers!
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Rosamunda
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Rosamunda » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:59 pm

Yes, me too. Just once a year. But make sure you don't forget to submit on time, because if you are late sending in your numbers I think they can put you back on a quarterly or even a monthly VAT schedule.

Should be an OK year for us as we invested in new equipment at 24% and most of our sales are at 14% this year... would be nice to get a refund for a change 8)

Charles Monk
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Re: VAT question for toiminimi

Post by Charles Monk » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:12 am

The new system works well for us, but we're doing things monthly. The ALV due back to us is given as a credit against all the other taxes we are supposed to pay (like income tax deducted from salaries and so on). The unified system works just fine: joined up taxation...!


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