"Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

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etsinasuntoa
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:06 pm

"Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

Post by etsinasuntoa » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:25 pm

Hello eveyone,

This is my first post on this forum which I really like for all the answers that I already found from it.
I'm a french guy and I've been learning finnish on and off for (too) many years. I seem to now know much more about finnish grammar than about actually using the language which is a shame, but the more I learn about how finnish works the more I love this language!

Now I've heard, I mean I've listened to a finnish song: "Kun sä sanot sen noin" from Ida Paul & Kalle Lindroth (please don't judge me :) )

The pre-chorus 1 starts with:
se osaat mulle uskotella, et maalaan seinille piruja
Which I'd translate as You know how to convince me that I see the devil everywhere (correct me if I'm wrong, I tried to interpret the idiom maalata pirua seinälle)

The pre-chorus 2 starts with:
se osaat mulle uskotella, et teen sulle kaikesta vaikeeta
Which I'd translate as "You know how to convince me that I make everything difficult for you" (correct me if I'm wrong)

My question....z
  • Why is this se there?
  • Do you think it is just a matter of rhythm?
  • Does it change the meaning of the sentences?
  • I have a feeling you could not use this se-structure in Kirjakieli, am I correct?
  • Do you use this structure in normal speech yourself? Could you give some examples?
  • Would Osaat minulle uskotella, että teen sinulle kaikesta vaikeaa have the same meaning as the second example? If not, which small modifications could render the original meaning in Kirjakieli? Would Sinähän osaat minulle uskotella... ?
  • If this "se" has a grammatical function, what is it?
Thank you all for having made it to the end of my question, and thank you in advance for answering it!

Mä en maltaa odotta teidän vastauksia!
Hei hei



"Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

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FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 957
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: "Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:37 am

"Sinä se", when used like that, "se" is an emphasis, underlining that it is particularly "sinä" (who is <whatever>). If something negative, could be considered also as implying a blame. Or if positive, "sinähän se osaat tämän", carries an undertone of praising. It can be subtle, and used more in spoken language, where tone of voice, the context etc. also affect the interpretation. For example, if there's a known history of someone having spectacularly failed at something, in literal terms a positive sentence ("sinähän se osaat"), considering the context, can mean that the person is being "kindly" reminded of that fact.

That being said, in lyrics the rhythm and rhyme may also influence the writer's choice of words.


metsämurmeli
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: "Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 7:10 pm

etsinasuntoa wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:25 pm

se osaat mulle uskotella, et maalaan seinille piruja
Which I'd translate as You know how to convince me that I see the devil everywhere (correct me if I'm wrong, I tried to interpret the idiom maalata pirua seinälle)
The meaning is the same as the same saying in German, the Finnish people in my life are saying: a general "expecting the worst", often used in a negative sense "do not paint the devil on the wall" or "that is painting the devil on the wall" meaning that is an unduly negative expectation. Though, to be honest, I have my reservations whether the negative meaning is also in the Finnish line... seeing that expecting the worst seems to be part of Finnishness a bit, maybe :)


etsinasuntoa
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: "Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

Post by etsinasuntoa » Tue May 08, 2018 9:07 am

Thanks a lot FinnGuyHelsinki, that actually makes much sense and helps a lot!
And also thanks metsämurmeli, I had never encountered this saying in German and just looked it up in Wiktionary "den Teufel an die Wand malen".
I actually based my translation on our equivalent French expression: voir le mal partout.


Valinnan vapaus
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:08 pm

Re: "Sä 'se' osaat..." Miksi "se" lisätään?

Post by Valinnan vapaus » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:04 pm

I guess you could have wanted a sligthly extended answer...

Sä se osaat mulle uskotella, et maalaan seinille piruja

Simple translation would be "You REALLY know how to convince me..." but as the other guy said, it's often to emphasize some particular person. Without it, it sounds like a pretty neutral statement.

"Toi Sonja osaa piirtää" - Sonja over there can draw.
"Toi Sonja se [vasta] osaa piirtää!" That Sonja really can draw! (you want someone who can draw? look no further than Sonja!)

Simlar sentences:
"Sä kyl[lä] sit[ten] tiedät, miten loukata toisen tunteita..."
"Ai, kun sä osaat laulaa kauniisti..."

Could be positive or negative (ironic). No, it's not really formal language but it fits kirjakieli fine (Sinä se vasta osaat uskotella, että maalaan seinille piruja.]. I don't use it myself because I don't use irony that much, nor do I like to praise others so much, but many people do.


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