Quick case question

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smoo
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Quick case question

Post by smoo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:14 pm

My Finnish class teacher takes that annoying modern approach whereby most grammar is demonstrated by example. I wish she would just TELL us what the effing words and constructions meant!!

My current confusion (this is very basic...) :

"Minä tulen keskivikkona kurssille"

Now, this makes complete sense, and makes me aware (after some searching on the web) of the "-LLE" case, ( i.e. "to"), which we hadn't
previously been told about.

"I come wednesday(on) course(to). "

But all the other examples of the use of "tulla" and "mennä" we have been given have the objects inflected thus:

"Minä menen kirjastoon"
"Minä menen kaupaan"

i.e. the last vowel is doubled and "n" is added. What is this case? What does it mean? Why can't I say "Minä menen kirjastolle" ? (or can I?) Why won't my Finnish teacher tell me??

Being taught a logical language in an illogical manner is very frustrating...
:?



Quick case question

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kalmisto
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Re: Quick case question

Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:28 pm

smoo wrote:My Finnish class teacher takes that annoying modern approach whereby most grammar is demonstrated by example. I wish she would just TELL us what the effing words and constructions meant!!

My current confusion (this is very basic...) :

"Minä tulen keskivikkona kurssille"

Now, this makes complete sense, and makes me aware (after some searching on the web) of the "-LLE" case, ( i.e. "to"), which we hadn't
previously been told about.

"I come wednesday(on) course(to). "

But all the other examples of the use of "tulla" and "mennä" we have been given have the objects inflected thus:

"Minä menen kirjastoon"
"Minä menen kaupaan"

i.e. the last vowel is doubled and "n" is added. What is this case? What does it mean? Why can't I say "Minä menen kirjastolle" ? (or can I?) Why won't my Finnish teacher tell me??

Being taught a logical language in an illogical manner is very frustrating...
:?
"Minä menen kirjastoon" = I am going to the library to do things people do in a library: borrow books,read newspapers...

If you say "Menen kirjastolle" you will probably meet someone outside the library or you are planning to do something else outside the library.

You do not go there to use the library what it was built for.

Luento on kirjastolla = The lecture will be at the library.
Last edited by kalmisto on Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smoo
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Post by smoo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:35 pm

Ah, OK. So the "double the vowel and add an -n" case almost turns the subject into a verb (not literally obviously), i.e. "I go to library", in the sense that afterwards I can say I was "librarying"?

smoo
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Post by smoo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:36 pm

I meant object, not subject, obviously.

kalmisto
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Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:45 pm

smoo

Read my previous message one more time ( I edited it ! ) !

Menen saunaan = I will go to the sauna and have a saunabath

Menen saunalle = I will go to the sauna ( the building is important here, not the purpose for which it was built ) , I will not enter the sauna , I will do something outside the sauna.
Last edited by kalmisto on Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

kalmisto
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Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:50 pm

Helsinki - Helsinkiin ( to Helsinki )

Turku - Turkuun ( to Turku )

Kuopio - Kuopioon ( to Kuopio )

Vaasa - Vaasaan ( to Vaasa )

Jyväskylä - Jyväskylään ( to Jyväskylä )

Chiugate
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Post by Chiugate » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:53 pm

You might have learned the "in" case already?

If not, it basically comes down to it that there are two ways. Some words get the -ssa ending, others get -lla added.

-ssa is in most cases "in"
-lla is supposed to be "on" or "at"

For example:
"kirjastossa" is in the library, "Espoossa" is in Espoo, "päässä" is in the head.
"torilla" is at the market place, and "päällä" in on the head

Now next, if you want to say you go into or onto a certain place:
For words that have the -lla ending usually, it is easy: change the -lla to -lle. Torilla (at the market place) becomes torille (to the market place), päällä (on the head) becomes päälle (onto the head).

When you use the -ssa ending it's a bit more complicated:
1. Words that have one syllable, and end in two vowels:
pää -> päähän (into the head)
kuu -> kuuhun (to the moon)
maa -> maahan (to the country)

2. Words that end in one vowel:
kirjasto -> kirjastoon (to the library)
kauppa -> kauppaan (to the shop)
posti -> postiin (to the post office)

3. Words that have more than one syllable, but end in 2 vowels
and words that end in a consonant:
Espoo -> Esposeen (to Espoo)
Lontoo -> Lontooseen (to London)
I can't think of any word ending in a consonant right now, sorry :p

And basically the difference between kauppaan and kaupalle is that you either go into the shop (kauppaan), or onto the roof of the shop (kaupalle), even though that second one doesn't make much sense...

kalmisto
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Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:58 pm

Read this on adessive vs. inessive :

http://www.ddg.com/LIS/InfoDesignF97/pa ... ases3.html

Chiugate
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Post by Chiugate » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:00 pm

And oh, you might see the consonant gradation.

For example kauppa (shop). Kaupassa (in the shop) only has one p. In kauppaan (to the shop), the two k's remain.

When adding the endings -ssa/-ssä, -lla/-llä, or -n (genitive) to a word which has a double consonant at the edge of the last and one-but-last syllable, you get rid of one of the consonants

pankki -> pankissa -> pankkiin

BUT if the double consonant is in a previous syllable of the word, you don't change it!

Anyway... You could check out my website, I've explained these matters there as well...

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:09 pm

kalmisto wrote:Helsinki - Helsinkiin ( to Helsinki )

Turku - Turkuun ( to Turku )

Kuopio - Kuopioon ( to Kuopio )

Vaasa - Vaasaan ( to Vaasa )

Jyväskylä - Jyväskylään ( to Jyväskylä )
But:

Tampere - Tampereelle

Virrat - Virroille

Kuusankoski - Kuusankoskelle

Rovaniemi - Rovaniemelle

But than again

Mikkeli - Mikkeliin

;)
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

kalmisto
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Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:27 pm

smoo

inside location cases ( inessive,elative,illative ) and outside location cases ( adessive,ablative,allative ) :

http://www.uta.fi/~km56049/finnish/cases.html

smoo
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Post by smoo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:47 pm

Ok.

Just to get this clear, though - is it the case that I COULD (grammatically) use any ending on any stem, even if it didn't make much sense or it wasn't something anyone would ever say? E.g. could I say "Helsinkille" if I Helsinki was orbiting the earth in a big glass bubble in and I was going to park my spaceship beside it but not actually enter it? I guess what I am asking is whether the choice to use one ending or a subtly different one is determined only by the precise meaning you want to convey, or also partially by convention.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:56 pm

You're correct of the "partially by convention" especially re. county/place names. Only locals know for sure (theres a list floating somewhere on the web on that). There are a few. Like "mennään baariin kaljalle" but "mennään järvelle kalaan" but also "menen kalalle" and "menen metsälle" (vs "menen metsään"). Menen metsälle is a bit of an archaic form, means "I go hunting". But then again "menen marjaan", "menen sieneen" and to confuse "menen sienimetsälle" :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

kalmisto
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Post by kalmisto » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:06 pm

smoo

more examples of inessive versus adessive :

http://www.uta.fi/~km56049/finnish/innadecomp.html
Last edited by kalmisto on Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smoo
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Post by smoo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:06 pm

Like "mennään baariin kaljalle" but "mennään järvelle kalaan"
You mean that for a given place, there are different conventions depending on what you are talking about, and that these aren't consistent from place to place? So for another place (say Finntowni) it could be ""mennään baariin Finntowniin" and "mennään järvelle Finntownille" ??


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