käskeä

[garoowood]

Äiti käski pojan ostaa itselleen uudet housut.
Äiti käski poikaa ostamaan itselleen uudet housut.

Are they both correct and have the same meaning?

I thought it should be käskeä+object+3rd infinitive illative.

[EP]

Both right, same meaning.

[Jukka Aho]

Äiti käski pojan ostaa itselleen uudet housut.
Äiti käski poikaa ostamaan itselleen uudet housut.

Are they both correct and have the same meaning?

Both are correct and have the same basic meaning. Perhaps the latter, longer form gives a bit more emphasis on the boy having told to get on or begin with the process that the -ma/-mä infinitive implies whereas the former is a more straightforward statement of a fact: he was just told to do something. But offhand, I can’t think of any situation where this would actually make for a meaningful difference. If anything, using the -ma/-mä infinitive only seems to give a bit different flavor to the narrative, that’s all.

[garoowood]

can I change the later to pojan?

[EP]

Yes.

But you cannot change the first one to poikaa.

[garoowood]

Why not then?
I think käskeä can be considered as an irresultive verb, or I can see that the result is not important.
If the later can use either alternatives, why can't the former one?

In the grammar book, it says auttaa,jättää,kutsua,käskeä,lähettää,määrätä,opettaa,pyytää etc. should be used as: verb+object+3rd infinitive illative.
I was thinking it is the only way to use in a verb+verb clause.
Since Äiti käski pojan ostaa itselleen uudet housut. is correct, it means all those verbs can be used in a verb+verb clause with verb+object+verb structure?

[EP]

Why not then?

Don´t ask me. I know nothing of grammar. Wait for Jukka or somebody else who does.

[Rob A.]

Yes.

But you cannot change the first one to poikaa.

Hmmmm....

So...

Äiti käski pojan ostaa itselleen uudet housut.="The mother told the boy to buy himself the new pants."....????

Äiti käski poikaa ostamaan itselleen uudet housut.="The mother told a boy to buy himself the new pants.".....???? Or still simply, "....told the boy...." ...???

....and it is in the partitive because the "order" to buy pants has an ongoing, incomplete sense to it when "ostamaan" is used, but is a "complete order" when "ostaa" is used....????...Kind of a bit subtle if you ask me....

[Jukka Aho]

:D
Why not then?
I think käskeä can be considered as an irresultive verb, or I can see that the result is not important.
If the later can use either alternatives, why can't the former one?

The “practical” answer seems to be that when you need the partitive, you switch to the 3rd infinitive forms. (An object in the partitive + a verb in the first infinitive just looks weird and grammatically incorrect... which it is.) The theoretical answer... well, apparently someone has written a 350-page thesis on that and related subjects. ;) Here’s a brief review of that rather hefty “paper”.

In the grammar book, it says auttaa,jättää,kutsua,käskeä,lähettää,määrätä,opettaa,pyytää etc. should be used as: verb+object+3rd infinitive illative.
I was thinking it is the only way to use in a verb+verb clause.
Since Äiti käski pojan ostaa itselleen uudet housut. is correct, it means all those verbs can be used in a verb+verb clause with verb+object+verb structure?

I think it only applies to verbs which can be used in so-called “permissive structure”, which is what that above-mentioned thesis is all about.

Äiti käski pojan ostaa housut.
Jeesus salli lasten tulla luoksensa.
Faarao antoi palvelijoidensa balsamoida vaimonsa ruumiin.
Vankileirin johtaja soi omaisten tavata vangit.

The relevant verbs are käskeä, sallia, antaa, suoda. I’m not sure if there are any others. This structure also works without an object:

Äiti käski ostaa housut.
Jeesus salli tulla luoksensa.
Faarao antoi balsamoida vaimonsa ruumiin.
Vankileirin johtaja soi tavata vangit.

In those kind of sentences, the intended object of the (permissive) action is deduced from the context. (Käskeä is arguably a bit of an oddball verb in this group as it means telling people around, not merely permitting or letting them do things, but that’s how it works, grammatically speaking.)

[garoowood]

thanks Jukka, as usual.
I have to say everytime I ask a question, there comes something new to me which is hard to absorb. Finnish is far more complicated then I thought.
I guess I just have to read more and more and try to get used to it.

[Pursuivant]

Äiti pojastaan pappia toivoi
poika lauloi, lauloi ja joi
Äiti toivoi, poika joi

(just like my ma)

[Jukka Aho]

Äiti pojastaan pappia toivoi
poika lauloi, lauloi ja joi
Äiti toivoi, poika joi

No relation to the grammatical “point” of the thread (that I can see?) but here goes anyway:


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