Thanks for that.
However, as far as I know, an Act cannot impose additional requirements in conflict with the Constitution, if the requirement is stated within the Constitution.
Thus, as I understand it, the Act cannot require the baby to be painted green. In other words (quoting your post), "as provided in more detail by
an Act", i.e. as elucidated, not denied nor based on additional requirements.
Again, as far as I understand, it is Constitution - Act - Decree - other administrative procedures (that don't conflict with an Act provided for the same purpose). Thus, like I said earlier, my understanding is an Act cannot deny a right conferred by the Constitution, nor can a decree deny or impose further requirements in conflict with the Act. One good example of an authority trying to impose additional requirements based on a decree in conflict with an Act is that of the Permanent Residence Permit and Citizenship applications vis-à-vis status codes issued under the earlier Alien's Act.
WBR.
WBR.
Finnish citizenship by birth (3rd country nationals).
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Hank W.
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But the constitution specifically states states that the act has the details. It is done so, that you don't need to rewrite the constitution every time. Usually Acts in Finland have the same mode, the Act states some principles and then the final details are figured out in a decree.
The Finnish Constitution is just like any other law in the book.
The Finnish Constitution is just like any other law in the book.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
What can I say? You have understood the Consitution wrong.network_engineer wrote:However, as far as I know, an Act cannot impose additional requirements in conflict with the Constitution, if the requirement is stated within the Constitution.
It says "A child acquires Finnish citizenship at birth and through the citizenship of its parents (Suomen kansalaisuus saadaan syntymän ja vanhempien kansalaisuuden perusteella)". I think it is indeed a logical AND relation between the two requirements; otherwise the word "tai" would appear in the Finnish text, or probably they would use "perusteilla" (plural form).
To show how wrong you've understood the text, do you think every child born to THE EARTH can have FINNISH citizenship?! Since the Constitution doesn't limit only the birth in Finland counts...
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network_engineer
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Hi Sy,
OK, it seem that my understanding may be incorrect. So, maybe then the intent is to say - A child acquires Finnish citizenship at birth through the citizenship of its parents. I.e. without the use of the word "and".
Maybe you are right, the use of the word "and" is probably used to indicate the intent that citizenship is granted to one is born, i.e. an unborn child is not yet a citizen of Finland.
On the other hand, the implication that any child born anywhere in the world can demand Finnish citizenship based on the Finnish Constitution is simply incorrect. Rights and duties defined by the Constitution is limited to the state, i.e. Finland. In terms of applicability, it applies to the territorial boundaries of that state, unless specially extended by an Act, e.g. a child born to Finnish parents in Antartica has the right to Finnish citizenship!
WBR.
OK, it seem that my understanding may be incorrect. So, maybe then the intent is to say - A child acquires Finnish citizenship at birth through the citizenship of its parents. I.e. without the use of the word "and".
Maybe you are right, the use of the word "and" is probably used to indicate the intent that citizenship is granted to one is born, i.e. an unborn child is not yet a citizen of Finland.
On the other hand, the implication that any child born anywhere in the world can demand Finnish citizenship based on the Finnish Constitution is simply incorrect. Rights and duties defined by the Constitution is limited to the state, i.e. Finland. In terms of applicability, it applies to the territorial boundaries of that state, unless specially extended by an Act, e.g. a child born to Finnish parents in Antartica has the right to Finnish citizenship!
WBR.
Probably the term "at birth" is used to indicate that citizenship is a birthright, comparing a right given to a person later after birth. Historically, it was possible that somebody could be born without citizenship. For example, a child born to a slave might not acquire the citizenship automatically.network_engineer wrote: Maybe you are right, the use of the word "and" is probably used to indicate the intent that citizenship is granted to one is born, i.e. an unborn child is not yet a citizen of Finland.
And besides through this birthright, citizenship can be acquired by declaration or application.
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Hank W.
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*sigh*
Imagine Birth Right & Parents Citizen being two people. You go get a checque from the bank (citizenship for the child).
To Birth Right AND Parents Citizen mean both have to be simultaneously present in the bank to cash the checque. Birth Right cannot go alone, he has to go AND Parents Citizen has to go as well. One of them cannot go alone.
If the checque is written to Birth Right OR Parents Citizen either Parents Citizen OR Birth Right can be alone in the bank to cash the checque.
As a sidenote, as there are weddings coming up and the "Finnish tradition" is to give a checque instead of vulgar cash it is Her Name OR (tai) His Name on the Checque. Even though it would be cute and loving to put the "logical" AND (ja) as they are a couple - so you imagine the couple has time to go hand-in-hand to queue into a bank to cash the checques??? Been there, done that, not a good idea.
Law is written with "bank logic", not "human logic"...
Imagine Birth Right & Parents Citizen being two people. You go get a checque from the bank (citizenship for the child).
To Birth Right AND Parents Citizen mean both have to be simultaneously present in the bank to cash the checque. Birth Right cannot go alone, he has to go AND Parents Citizen has to go as well. One of them cannot go alone.
If the checque is written to Birth Right OR Parents Citizen either Parents Citizen OR Birth Right can be alone in the bank to cash the checque.
As a sidenote, as there are weddings coming up and the "Finnish tradition" is to give a checque instead of vulgar cash it is Her Name OR (tai) His Name on the Checque. Even though it would be cute and loving to put the "logical" AND (ja) as they are a couple - so you imagine the couple has time to go hand-in-hand to queue into a bank to cash the checques??? Been there, done that, not a good idea.
Law is written with "bank logic", not "human logic"...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
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network_engineer
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Hi!
Thanks. *Why* am I still not convinced???
Reading through the Nationality Act, it seems that children born to parents who are resident in Finland on the basis of need-of-protection, can be granted Finnish citizenship. I.e. obviously even if the parents are not Finnish citizens.
Now, this can be argued as a right or privilege granted by an Act, but again no Act can granted a right against a principle laid down by the constitution.
Now, what do you think?
Cheers.
PS: It is NOT about citizenship by the application process, but on whether a child born in Finland can acquire Finnish citizenship without the five-mile long application process.
Thanks. *Why* am I still not convinced???
Reading through the Nationality Act, it seems that children born to parents who are resident in Finland on the basis of need-of-protection, can be granted Finnish citizenship. I.e. obviously even if the parents are not Finnish citizens.
Now, this can be argued as a right or privilege granted by an Act, but again no Act can granted a right against a principle laid down by the constitution.
Now, what do you think?
Cheers.
PS: It is NOT about citizenship by the application process, but on whether a child born in Finland can acquire Finnish citizenship without the five-mile long application process.
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network_engineer
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- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am
My kids were all born to a Finnish father OUTSIDE Finland (France) and they were NOT granted citizenship until we moved to Finland. The Finnish embassy in Paris refused to give them Finnish passports, even though their father had signed a French paternity document before they were born.Do you mean to imply that a child born to Finnish parents out of Finland would not acquire Finnish citizenship?
From my previously posted link:
"A child who is born abroad and whose father is a Finnish citizen will acquire Finnish citizenship when the parents get married. If paternity has been established, the child will acquire Finnish citizenship as of the date of the marriage contract. If paternity is established after this point, the child will acquire Finnish citizenship as of the date on which paternity is established."
here is a document (in english) that clarifies some things:
http://www.uvi.fi/download.asp?id=Finni ... wnload.asp
"A child who is born abroad and whose father is a Finnish citizen will acquire Finnish citizenship when the parents get married. If paternity has been established, the child will acquire Finnish citizenship as of the date of the marriage contract. If paternity is established after this point, the child will acquire Finnish citizenship as of the date on which paternity is established."
here is a document (in english) that clarifies some things:
http://www.uvi.fi/download.asp?id=Finni ... wnload.asp