Päiväkoti visiting a church

isaluba · Post by **isaluba** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:15 am

My 3 1/2 year old just started päiväkoti this fall. I noticed in the schedule for next week that they are visiting a church. Is this normal for public daycares? What do the children do there? We are not a religious family. While we are open to having our daughter learn about different religions we dont want anyone preaching to her. Will they ostracize her if we ask that she not go? Anyone have any experience with this?

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Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:00 pm

There is no division between state and religion in Finland so yes, it is not at all unusual for kids to be taken to church. Personally I think the powers that be need to rethink some of this stuff, it all seems a little out of date to me. We are in the same situation: we are not a religious family, my kids have never been baptised and we do not go to church or pray as a family. I am however quite happy for my children to take religion classes in school (in Hungary they went to Catholic reglious instruction, now it is Lutheran). They did have the choice of doing ethics instead.

As far as "indoctrination" is concerned... I guess that depends a lot on your local priest/parish. I would certainly ask the director of your päiväkoti for some more information. But chances are... it's fairly low-key.

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:25 pm

I think it's disgraceful! This sort of thing puts the parents in a very difficult position, if the parents of a child don't want their child to be brain washed by religious propaganda and they withdraw their child from such excursions, the child will definately feel left out.

If these visits happened at my child's päiväkoti, I would definately complain.

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:30 pm

littlefrank wrote:I think it's disgraceful!

It's not disgraceful, just they way they've "always done things."

I let my kids when they were in daycare to participate in the church trips, because it is mostly singing songs and drinking warm juice.

During their school age years they go to "ethics" classes instead with the other "lost souls."

My son went to the "ethics" camp last summer and had a really nice time.

It's not such a big deal.

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:40 pm

'It's not such a big deal.'

You may think it's not, but if I wanted my daughter to visit a bloody church, I'd take her there myself!

Oh well calm down, if I hear that one of these visits are scheduled I'll withdraw my daughter from kindergarten that day, take her to the zoo and give her a very basic lesson in Darwin's theory of evolution.

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:56 pm

littlefrank wrote: Oh well calm down, if I hear that one of these visits are scheduled I'll withdraw my daughter from kindergarten that day, take her to the zoo and give her a very basic lesson in Darwin's theory of evolution.

OK, but while you're at it, skip Christmas too.

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:41 pm

Like most good things. christian religion adopted pagan rituals to make their authoritarianism more acceptable. Yes we'll be celebrating christmas but has the true birth of commercialism.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christmas.html

EP · Post by EP » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:07 pm

take her to the zoo and give her a very basic lesson in Darwin's theory of evolution.

Aren´t you now over reacting? Those church visits are to show the children inside of a church (most have never been in a church). Like it is not some mysterious building that they have never been in. Nobody preaches, nobody gets religious. And creationism is something that is not taught in Finland, evolution is.

If there were more mosques they would visit there, too. Just like later at school they are taught the basic principles of different "Christianisms", islam, buddhism, hinduism, animism and so on.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:26 pm

littlefrank wrote:I think it's disgraceful! This sort of thing puts the parents in a very difficult position, if the parents of a child don't want their child to be brain washed by religious propaganda and they withdraw their child from such excursions, the child will definately feel left out.

I lived for 20 years in a country (France) where religion was banned in state schools and where even wearing a headscarf was sufficient reason to exclude a moslem girl from school. Then I came to Finland where a person's religion is hard-coded to his Kela code and his kids are automatically "allocated" to religion classes.

So, a few years down the road I have come to the conclusion that....

-some religion is better than no religion at all
-religion and culture are inseperable
-kids are genuinely interested in the cultural backgrounds of their classmates and that includes learning about their religions
- religion can be taught "intelligently" in schools (in the same way that history, geography and science are part of a state controlled curriculum)

Religious education is really based on ethics (one of my boys started this school year on an ethics class and then switched to Lutherism after 3 weeks when he realised the timetable switch meant could get home earlier on Wednesdays

but according to him, "the two classes are doing the same stuff anyway"). In ylä-aste the kids learn about all different religions, not just Christianity. The lessons encourage active participation and discussion. After all, why should kids be denied the opportunity to understand some of the cr@p that is happening in the world right now?

BTW, returning to my French example.... I'm not sure that the state school curriculum's total abstraction of the world's religions has had a positive impact on tolerance and fraternity in that country. Denial is maybe also a form of "brainwashing and propaganda"....

but I can see this thread going through the roof so.... I'll go make dinner...

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:00 pm

I just do not think that religion should be taught to young children, they're at an impressionable age and therefore take what most adults say as true.
So I have no objection to older kids learning about world religions and other superstitions, they can visit druid sites or places were UFO's have supposedly landed, I don't care as long as they're at an age that they understand that just because some people believe something doesn't necessarily make it true.

Religion and ethics, I consider this to be sheer hypocracy. 'Love your fellow man, but not literally because that's un-natural' is just one of the churches ethics that springs to mind. How can you teach children to be open minded by organisations that are totally reactionary?

Basically it annoys me, that we subsidize something that parents are to lazy to teach themselves, and if a minority of parents feel strongly that their children should have religious education then their children should attend a religious school not funded by the state, but paid for by their respective religion.

I hope your dinner was nice, I'm having a vegetable stew myself.

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:03 pm

littlefrank wrote:
Basically it annoys me, that we subsidize something that parents are to lazy to teach themselves, and if a minority of parents feel strongly that their children should have religious education then their children should attend a religious school not funded by the state, but paid for by their respective religion.

I don't disagree with you on the rest, but how do you subsidise the church?

You can opt out of the church tax by not belonging to it.

EP · Post by EP » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:32 pm

just do not think that religion should be taught to young children

They are not taught religion, they are simply going to see what a building called church looks like from the inside. Just like they have seen how a library looks like. Or an art museum.

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:00 pm

'I don't disagree with you on the rest, but how do you subsidise the church?'

Our taxes pay for the schools, the teachers, the visits.

'They are not taught religion, they are simply going to see what a building called church looks like from the inside.

Superiorinfeior said,

'I let my kids when they were in daycare to participate in the church trips, because it is mostly singing songs and drinking warm juice. '

So religious songs I presume were sung, I wonder what religious people would say if their child came home singing 'Glad to be Gay' by the Tom Robinson Band or the 'Red Flag' . And yes I would disagree with my child being taken to the Lenin museum in Tampere as well, any political or religious influences are up to the parents, not the school.

'They also get out of the classroom a few minutes early as the other's say a prayer or something before lunch. The 3 think it's great that they're the first in line!'

School lunch has changed since I was at school then.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:05 pm

The LEA in Espoo offers classes in Catholicism, Buddism, Hinduism, Judism etc etc as well as ethics. It is not a case of Lutherism or ethics.
Last year 2 of my 3 kids were being taught religion by non-Finnish non-Lutheran Christians. There was no Bible-bashing and no brainwashing. They talked about things like tolerance and sharing etc. Personally I cannot understand why anyone can be "against" teaching religion but "for" teaching science or history. Religion is just a subject. Finding out about other religions (one of my kids recently had a homework project about Hinduism) is no different to studying Jethro Tull and Horse Hoeing Husbandry from 18th Century English social and economic history. And as I said before, if the alternative to RE class is: religion as a complete taboo (as in France) then our kids won't get far in learning to accept cultural differences. Even at 5 years old, kids understand that we are not all the same, that we are not all the same colour and we don't all eat the same food and we don't all have the same "rules" at home (be it dress, behaviour or whatever) IMO 5yrs is not too young to start learning about different religions and different cultures. In fact, the sooner the better, as long as it is done in a sensitive way. Education, education, education.

Question (genuine and curious): How do you explain to your children why they are not doing religion like the other 17 kids in the class? What is your rationale vis-a-vis your kids???

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:30 pm

'Personally I cannot understand why anyone can be "against" teaching religion but "for" teaching science or history.'

Easy Science and history deal in facts. I would of course object to my my child doing both subjects if they taught that UFO's are a fact and so was King Arthur and the knights of the round table.

'They talked about things like tolerance and sharing etc'

Tolerence for Gays and people who have an abortion etc.

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