No total free movement for EU citizens

[sy]

Recently in this forum there are at least two cases where EU citizens' claims for Kela benefits were rejected. With all due respect, I just want to make some facts straight.

There is no total free movement for EU citizens to other EU countries. If you work full-time, you can register your residence right in another EU country and enjoy all the social benefits as that country's own citizens. Even this residence right is not permanent yet in the beginning. EU citizens also have to live in another EU country continously for 5 years to get the permanent residence right. So in the first 5 years, if an EU citizen is heavily relied on the other country's social wellfare, the residence right can be revoked. Also if your reason for staying in that country changes, then your residence right can be re-examined.

Second, I think EU citizens with only part-time jobs are probably not registered based on your employment (work), but on the fact that you can support yourself financially and have your own health insurance. Once you start to study, then the reason for your stay becomes temporarily.

Third, Kela benefits are not necessarily related to each other; they are governed by different laws. So it's possible that you can get the opintotuki, but not necessarily other benefits, or vice versa.

Anyway, the bottom line is that EU treaties and directives enables EU citizens to work in another country. It doesn't promote EU citizens to live in another country for the sole purpose to enjoy the social benefits of that country. (I'm not implying that other posters are doing so, just let them to understand their own situation from another point of view.)

[Mook]

Third, Kela benefits are not necessarily related to each other; they are governed by different laws. So it's possible that you can get the opintotuki, but not necessarily other benefits, or vice versa.

Indeed, you can only be paid one benefit at a time. So, for instance, you can't be paid Lastenhoitoraha and Äitiysraha/vanhempainraha at the same time.

[Hank W.]

And EU citizenship does not make a difference - KELA is "residence based". A Finn lived say in Australia moves back to Finland has to be the same xnum years resident and xnum months working before they get "on KELA". And the same thing when you move out KELA cuts you off the Finnish insurance...

[blaugrau]

Sy, you are not correct when you are saying that EU citizens have no access to the Kela goodies for the first five years. Depending on the circumstances (work, family, study), they do. Students can get health insurance if they work at least 18hrs a week, if you come here for relationship reasons, you too are eligible for all aspects of Kela benefits provided you are registered as permanent in the population register. If you have worked in the same job for at least 4 months, you are considered a permanent resident, and you do get the opintotuki from Kela.

Check the Finnish pages of the Kela website, they are more clear on what is required and not, the English pages contain only half the information. No offense, but when you say that you "think" that people with part-time jobs "probably" are not covered, that just shows you don't actually know the details. The health insurance does not necessarily require permanent residence here, as I said, it depends how much hours you work, and they then cover you (at least) for the period you work, regardless of how you are registered in the population register. There is no "quarantine" period at all for health getting health insurance. Opintotuki has stricter requirements, they need you to be registered as permanent in the population register (i.e. not as a student, because they don't consider foreign students as living here permanent).

I think you didn't quite draw the right conclusions from these two threads, so it rather adds to the general confusion (no offense).

[sy]

Blaugrau, what you said is correct (mostly). If you check my original post more carefully, I didn't say those things you claimed wrong.

Another confusion is the so-called "permanent residence" here. What you meant in your post is the "permanent domicle / vakinainen kotikunta", and what I meant is the "right to permanent residence / oikeus pysyvään oleskeluun".

[blaugrau]

Kela's decisions are, however, mainly based on whether or not the applicant permanently domiciled in the population register at the maistraatti. The permanent residence you meant is not a requirement for getting benefits from Kela. So I'm not quite sure what your point was in mentioning that one. And I think it's four years, not five.

[sy]

Again, Kela's decisions are MAINLY based on the domicle, but other factors can also inflence these decisions. For example, Opintotukilaki also depends on the provisions from Ulkomaalaislaki.

The reason I mentioned the "right to permanent residence" is that if you come to Finland based on part-time job, as I said, you are probably registered based on the fact that you have means to support yourself and health insurance, not based on employment, according to the Aliens Act (Ulkomaalaislaki). In the population register, you can be permanently domiciled (vakinaisesti kotikunta). However, if you stop working and start studying, then your reason to stay in Finland is based on study, which is temporarily according to the Aliens Act. Kela can then deny your request for the opintotuki, even though in the population registry you're marked as "permamently domiciled".

The requirement for the "right to permanent residence / oikeus pysyvään oleskeluun" is five years. Four years is for the "permanent residence permit / pysyvä oleskelulupa" for non-EU foreigners.

[blaugrau]

However, if you stop working and start studying, then your reason to stay in Finland is based on study, which is temporarily according to the Aliens Act. Kela can then deny your request for the opintotuki, even though in the population registry you're marked as "permamently domiciled".

I am quite sure that this is not correct. What counts for Kela is that you came here for reasons other than studying, and these reasons are stated in the paper you got from the police and the status you gave when you first were registered at the maistraatti. Once you have acquired permanent status (and this is possible when you came here even if you're self-funded, I claim), you can quit work and start studying. The reasons for coming to Finland are not suddenly changed in that case. You do get opintotuki in this case.

[*Nordlicht]

However, if you stop working and start studying, then your reason to stay in Finland is based on study, which is temporarily according to the Aliens Act. Kela can then deny your request for the opintotuki, even though in the population registry you're marked as "permamently domiciled".

I am quite sure that this is not correct. What counts for Kela is that you came here for reasons other than studying, and these reasons are stated in the paper you got from the police and the status you gave when you first were registered at the maistraatti. Once you have acquired permanent status (and this is possible when you came here even if you're self-funded, I claim), you can quit work and start studying. The reasons for coming to Finland are not suddenly changed in that case. You do get opintotuki in this case.

This is how it went in my case, and I get the opintotuki, had no problems at all to get it!

[sy]

Once you have acquired permanent status (and this is possible when you came here even if you're self-funded, I claim), you can quit work and start studying. The reasons for coming to Finland are not suddenly changed in that case. You do get opintotuki in this case.

Well, this is the center point of our debating now. I have been checking the Ulkomaalaislaki and Opintotukilaki and related Government Bills (HE) and EC directives. Again I might be wrong, but according to Ulkomaalaislaki Section 161f, EU citizen's right to reside in Finland retains if the reason for registration still holds. My understanding is that if you switch from working to studying totally, then obviously your ground for registration is switched from working to studying, i.e., from permanent to temporary. Of course, your information in the population registry won't be updated automatically. But when you start to apply for some social benefits, that is the point for the authority to check your status.

Your interpretation will lead to an absurd situation, in which an EU citizen can just come to Finland to work part-time for 4 months, and then quits working and enjoys the social benefits.

Of course, it's a different issue when you are still working while studying.

[blaugrau]

I know two people personally who came here to do voluntary work for one year, and after that year started studying and got opintotuki and full insurance (and I know of similar cases who I don't know personally though). So these cases as well as the texts I read on the various authorities' webpages and information I got personally from clerks in the relevant offices is what I base my interpretation on. In addition, I would think that a permanent domicilation wouldn't be permanent if it is easily revoked, but I guess that could be debated. I remember when I myself got permanently domiciled on grounds of my first job, I asked the maistraatti lady if I now have to inform them all the time when I switch jobs or do something else, and she said that they are not interested in any of that since I'm now permanently domiciled.

But I also made the experience that certain things depend a lot on who is handling your case etc and it seems that at least in the different municipalities, the maistraattis have their own little ways (I for example had to bring a translated and apostilled birth certificate when getting permanently domiciled, while nowhere on the net do they say that they need this document, and I heard of others who insisited they didn't need to bring such things). So it's often difficult to predict, what kind of decision is taken in the end. So it's true and you are right that it is better not to rely fully on any interpretation, however, at the moment, I'm still fairly certain that your permanent status is not revoked if you come for work reasons and then switch to studying full time after they domiciled you as permanent. But it's a good you brought up the issue.