finland needs workers

[sinikettu]

The YLE suggestion that "foreigners/immigrants" can fill these jobs seems to fall down a hole when the employers say.."They need to be fluent in Finnish!"
As this can not be acheived over night.
No solution can be found.

"fluent" is 1000 words. This is doable for average person in 2 month. This is enough to execute the simple orders.

Are you a complete moron..?
No I dont think so..
If you want to be understood and if you need to understand your customers/clients/patients.
It is a two way conversation...
1000 words is not enough to work in a Hotel reception/bar.
1000 words is not enough to work in a health care clinic.
1000 words is just about enough to go shopping in City Market.

Or as you say.."enough to execute the simple orders" like.. haist#¤¤ Vit$€€

[raamv]

*wow* 3 pages and counting of the same kind of conversation by shrecher n others..that has continued from other threads.
shrecher , its moot point to really make you understand that Without understanding Finnish Culture and language, its going to be difficult to live and work here long term. period.
As for the solutions of Integration :Many steps needed to be taken by the govt. but there is not any fast route to this issue.
Integration efforts need to be strengthened, both by the Govt. and by the enterprise.
Enterprise efforts must be rewarded with incentives on tax breaks ( foreign board members, X foreign % of workers in a company gets Y % tax breaks), Allowance for companies to compensate for the time lost to teach an immigrant worker Finnish. Mandatory "new-worker" indoctrination and understanding of Finnish culture.
etc etc..
There are many things that can be done, the question is who is going to do it and how.
Currently, its just resembles an uncoordinated effort by many Govt. departments, Universities and Companies.

[sammy]

About qualifications, skills and expertise in relation to language skills... knowledge and expertise are not necessarily judged on the same scales of importance (so to speak) as language skills. These two sides of the coin may BOTH be required, in equal measure.

Just as an example - my job, whilst it does require expertise and also a lot of customer contacts, is not something for which qualifications as such would play a massively important role. Obviously you do need to be in the know of what goes on in the field, you need to know the substance of your work, and in fact knowledge of English is another fairly important asset.

That is, even if you do need a certain level of experience and know-how -you do not need to be an Einstein to handle the substance of my job (my friends are nodding their heads somewhere ) - this fact remains: regardless of your skills and qualifications you simply could not survive in this job without fluent Finnish (and I'm making a clear distinction here between 'quite fluent non-native language speaker' and '1000 words fluency').

This is not being big-headed, it is a plain and simple fact. The thing is, English is required but that alone will not get you anywhere. Not only in customer contacts, but also in keeping track with the field, communicating with vcolleagues, reading circulars, publications, memos, presentations... you know what, they're in Finnish mostly, and will continue to be. Sorry to say, but more or less the only people that move about in the same offices and who do NOT absolutely need Finnish in their job... are a few of the IT support guys (sic!) and ... the cleaners.

Yes, this is just one example among the many, but still I'm afraid the same is true of many other employees.

BUT my main point after this would be that unless we can assess the situation realistically, without too rosy-coloured glasses, there's little hope that we could come up with answers and solutions of any relevance to the real world as we know it either.

[shrecher]

Are you a complete moron..?
No I dont think so..
If you want to be understood and if you need to understand your customers/clients/patients.
It is a two way conversation...
1000 words is not enough to work in a Hotel reception/bar.
1000 words is not enough to work in a health care clinic.
1000 words is just about enough to go shopping in City Market.

Or as you say.."enough to execute the simple orders" like.. haist#¤¤ Vit$€€

Well, check this 1,900 visas are being granted to berry-pickers, which almost 2% of desired 100K worker. I wonder how many words they known in Finnish? 1000? Very unlikely.

Next, once I was about 55 km from Helsinki in very tiny rural village and I was very sick. I went to local hospital "treveuskeskus". Unfortunately, it was no _any_ doctor available, as the single doctor left for training. Do you think I'll be really mind if any other doctor would be possible, who don't speak my language? Well, I would be happy to get any professional service even he speaks only German (I know only 50 words in this language).

Few times I was staying in queue during 2+ hours with kids to a doctor and many other people were in this queue. Do you think any of us would mind if the doctor would speak only 1000 Fin + English if the queue will go faster? Well, it doesn't matter. Many people will switch to English or body language.

Next, you come to car repair and they say you: all workers are busy up to next week, please go 20 Km far from this place. Again, is it matter if the worker will speak only 1000 words of your language? No.

Conclusion: 1000+ words is good enough.

[Hank W.]

Currently, its just resembles an uncoordinated effort by many Govt. departments, Universities and Companies.

Well, atleast they have now - *finally* come up with an "immigration policy" in the Government. So maybe sometime in 2020 we might have something actually working... (and thats my very optimistic positive thinking... realist is 2040)

[sammy]

Mandatory "new-worker" indoctrination and understanding of Finnish culture.

[raamv]

Okie Okie...I need to be specific!! I should have mentioned the Finnish "Work" Culture apart from the Regular Finnish Culture..

[sammy]

Do you think any of us would mind if the doctor would speak only 1000 Fin + English if the queue will go faster? Well, it doesn't matter. Many people will switch to English or body language.

what a splendid suggestion. I'm sure the queue would go much faster - if every patient knew perfect English, or if only obvious cases like broken legs with bits of bone sticking out would be allowed in.

Use of body language? (I guess there's one particular body language expression that would fit here well but since this is a family programme I'll leave it out)

Just imagine the first mom with her child who doesn't know English well enough, or at all really, explaining away to the dear 1000-word fluent Doctor about the invisible symptoms - when they started, what the kid has been eating lately, where and how exactly does it hurt and a myriad of other things you'd come face to face with as a doctor, and which you would need to be able to have in-depth discussions with your patients.

It wouldn't exactly speed up the queues now would it if you'd need to employ Busby Berkeley to painstakingly choreograph each patient's exact symptoms, now would it?

[Hank W.]

I should have mentioned the Finnish "Work" Culture apart from the Regular Finnish Culture..

What? We got "culture" now all of a sudden? I thought we only had unbalanced furniture??? (darn Ikea)

[shrecher]

Just imagine the first mom with her child who doesn't know English well enough, or at all really, explaining away to the dear 1000-word fluent Doctor about the invisible symptoms - when they started, what the kid has been eating lately, where and how exactly does it hurt and a myriad of other things you'd come face to face with as a doctor, and which you would need to be able to have in-depth discussions with your patients.

I was in such situation. If you have option sit to wait a doctor 4+ hours (or maybe he's not even available today) and another option to get visit to doctor who speak only 1000 words and some English, I select the 2nd. Apparently, many others would do the same. If "mom with her child" don't speak English, it will be her problem: she would wait for professional for many hours as she is doing it now. Sooner she understands this fact, it is better for her.

If/when non-Finnish speaking workers will fill in Finland then the situation drastically changes. I was living for long time (> several years) in Pacific Asia. Because there are so many migrants and different nationalities around most of local people must speak at least basic English.

12 years ago nobody couldn't even imagine so many foreigns will start live in Helsinki. Nowadays, it is normal to hear English speaking at tram, it is normal that cashier can serve you in English,most of public services have a person speaking English. Finland is integrating and foreign people come here, you can't enforce them to learn the language. That's life, you can't escape from it.

[Rick1]

You can see that it is only marketing that counts in Nokia and you can ask the Germans how well they are doing that I have met many foreigners who do not know much of Finland outside of Nokia or are afraid of it.
How long are you working for Nokia Shrecher? What I can see is that you are very self centered and think that only what you say and think is correct. Maybe you should try to get a job in a finnish speaking company and report here your experiences.

[rinso]

If "mom with her child" don't speak English, it will be her problem:

You're not only arrogant and self centred, but also disrespectful towards the people whose country this is.
And you are not doing immigrants a favour with your remarks. Preach this attitude to the locals and I'm sure the anti foreign sentiment will increase.

[Tiwaz]

*wow* 3 pages and counting of the same kind of conversation by shrecher n others..that has continued from other threads.
shrecher , its moot point to really make you understand that Without understanding Finnish Culture and language, its going to be difficult to live and work here long term. period.
As for the solutions of Integration :Many steps needed to be taken by the govt. but there is not any fast route to this issue.
Integration efforts need to be strengthened, both by the Govt. and by the enterprise.
Enterprise efforts must be rewarded with incentives on tax breaks ( foreign board members, X foreign % of workers in a company gets Y % tax breaks), Allowance for companies to compensate for the time lost to teach an immigrant worker Finnish. Mandatory "new-worker" indoctrination and understanding of Finnish culture.
etc etc..
There are many things that can be done, the question is who is going to do it and how.
Currently, its just resembles an uncoordinated effort by many Govt. departments, Universities and Companies.

You mean discriminating against finns would be solution? I can see how it would be great success.

"Sorry Pekka, you are better than Bob here, but hiring less competent Bob raises us above foreigner margin so we get tax benefits"

Yup. That would go down really well.

How about alternative solution, make residence permit or KELA support dependant on immigrants progress in integration? No progress, your ass is on the plane back home.
It is about as realistic as expecting finns to swallow being discriminated in favour of immigrants.


And schrecher... I think you have this small mistake in your understanding where you are. Welcome to Finland. We over here speak finnish as native language. Call us barbarians but we expect guy who gives us service (doctor, salesperson or whatever) to actually speak to us in that language. Because it is, you know, local language.

Trying to turn Finland into little Britain will not work.

Oh yes, and doctor who can't speak finnish and/or swedish is going to be big problem. Have you heard of this thing "Kielilaki"... As I read it, I have right to receive service in finnish. So it is not problem of mother, she is within her rights to demand treatment in finnish. Problem is with doctor and his employer.

[Hank W.]

Few times I was staying in queue during 2+ hours with kids to a doctor and many other people were in this queue. Do you think any of us would mind if the doctor would speak only 1000 Fin + English if the queue will go faster? Well, it doesn't matter. Many people will switch to English or body language.

Next, you come to car repair and they say you: all workers are busy up to next week, please go 20 Km far from this place. Again, is it matter if the worker will speak only 1000 words of your language? No.

Conclusion: 1000+ words is good enough.

Well, scercher, I'm going to pull the USSR card here. "Big country, big tolerances" where you could get by with the quantity of people, or quantity of production, and quality is then depending if its monday or the beginning of the month or end of the month when you have to get the quota filled.

Finland is a "small country with small tolerances" so here the quality of people has been valued over quantity of people. "One Finn equals 10 russians, problem is when number 11 comes"

So theres the basic difference of thought between the two "national ideologies" if you wish. A Finn doesn't want to deal with some 1000 words person and then another 1000 words person and a third 1000 words person. They want one that knows 5000 words.

Harasoo, nitsevoo, and more vodka for the tsuhnas.

[Rob A.]

Well...the debates and the BS will never end... In British Columbia, the debate is over whether or not the English standards for veterinarians are too stringent.... :

http://thethunderbird.ca/blog/2007/12/0 ... -watchdog/

Well...I don't know about you, but I'm not going to take "Fido" to any "vet" who can't explain to me in clear, concise English, [Edit: Of course...I hope it's clear I mean English in my part of Canada...in Finland I would expect to have to bring a "translator" if I can't understand] ...what an operation is expected to accomplish and why it has to cost $3,000.... No matter how good they may claim to be...

And the debate, of course, takes on a familiar trajectory...Veterinarians claiming some other jurisdiction has less stringent standards, and veterinarians charging lower fees to attract customers who are stupid enough to think that a cheaper "unnecessary" procedure is something that makes sense to them, while an expensive "unnecessary" procedure doesn't... And the "vets" who are charging the lower fees??? Well, they tend to be Indo-Canadians and naturally they are alleging "racism"...

Whatever works I guess.... I don't know what the "white" vet who charges lower fees alleges....maybe a corporate conspiracy or something a little more subtle...

Finland...this is your future!!!... And all these foreigners learn what "works" in one place and how to apply the pressure in another place...