Niemeen/niemelle? -names

polkkis · Post by **polkkis** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:12 pm

Hei,

i have problems with some finnish toponyms, for example:

minä matkustan Rovaniemelle (i travel to Rovaniemi), yksi ystävä asuu Rovaniemellä (one friend is living in Rovaniemi)
because -niemi > lle/ -llä

but why:
minä menen Munkkiniemeen (i go to Munkkiniemi), yksi ystävä asuu Munkkiniemessä (one friend is living in Munkkiniemi) = RIGHT?
or
the same with Lauttasaari: minä menen Lauttasaareen (i go to Lauttasaari), yksi ystävä asuu Lauttasaaressa (one friend is living in Lauttasaari)

Normally with -saari > lle/ -lle.

(Munkkiniemi is a neighbourhood in Helsinki. Lauttasaari is an island and neighbourhood of Western Helsinki , about 3 kilometres west of the city centre.)

2) Problem:
My finnish book: Suomen kilen perusopetusta. Yksi harjoitus on vaikea:
moderni taide
can i say: minä pidän modernista taiteesta (not: modernisesta taiteesta) ?
and
(moderni taide) ______________________ on paljon mielenkiintoista. I don´t understand this. I try: modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoista (sounds strange! or?)

kiitos avusta
polkkis

**Sponsor:**

onkko · Post by **onkko** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:31 pm

For part 1 i can answer, it just is

There isnt real rule (or if there is no one is obeying it) so you say as locals say.

part 2 modernista taiteesta is correct and modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoista doesnt sound strange at all.

I know i cant help a lot on part 2 but thats something while someone who knows grammar rules answers.

EP · Post by EP » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:35 pm

minä matkustan Rovaniemelle (i travel to Rovaniemi), yksi ystävä asuu Rovaniemellä (one friend is living in Rovaniemi) because -niemi > lle/ -llä but why: minä menen Munkkiniemeen (i go to Munkkiniemi), yksi ystävä asuu Munkkiniemessä (one friend is living in Munkkiniemi) = RIGHT?

RIGHT. I don´t know, that is just the way it is.

can i say: minä pidän modernista taiteesta (not: modernisesta taiteesta) ?

Yes, modernista, not modernisesta.

(moderni taide) ______________________ on paljon mielenkiintoista. I don´t understand this. I try: modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoista (sounds strange! or?)

No, it does not sound strange, that is right. (there is a lot of interesting in modern art)

polkkis · Post by **polkkis** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:08 pm

Thanks for your help.

1)
Is there any rules with "niemi", "saari", why sometimes?:

niemelle/ niemellä and then niemeen / niemessä: Rovaniemelle >< Munkkiniemeen
saarelle/ saarella and then saareen / saaressa: Viitasaarella >< Lauttasaareessa

is there any "rules"-links? esimerkki: -niemi on aina lle/-lle, muutamat sanat sitten erilaisia...

2)
(moderni taide)__ modernissa taiteessa__ on paljon mielenkiintoista.
OK, now i understand. But this "on paljon mielenkiintoista" i don´t understand, why mielenkiintoista and why not for example mielenkiintoinen or mielenkiintoisia.

I would like to ask: what is mielenkiintoista ("mikä/ mitä on mielenkiintoista").

The same: uudessa sanomalehdessä on paljon mielenkiintoista. This sounds also so strange, or? Tai onko kirjassa virhe?
minun pää on nyt vähän sekaisin....!

btw:
my mother is from Finland, so i understand very well finnish, but with some words...i have problems...

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:14 pm

polkkis wrote: is there any "rules"-links? esimerkki: -niemi on aina lle/-lle, muutamat sanat sitten erilaisia...

Onkko told the only real rule regarding names of places: say as the locals do.

Jukka Aho · Post by **Jukka Aho** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:16 pm

polkkis wrote:i have problems with some finnish toponyms,

Finnish toponyms have been previously discussed at least in these two threads, so perhaps you’d like to take a look at them first:

(Note that In both of these threads, the toponym discussion is dispersed among messages on other topics, and the threads themselves extend to several pages.)

But it all boils down to the fact that there are just “tendencies”; not quick-and-fast rules you could absolutely trust. You pretty much need to learn which case the locals prefer, or look up what is the established usage in the media. (Sometimes the local preference is such that it sounds “wrong” and unintuitive even to native speakers from other parts of the country.)

polkkis wrote:moderni taide
can i say: minä pidän modernista taiteesta (not: modernisesta taiteesta) ?

Yep, that’s correct (and the alternative in the parenthesis is not.)

polkkis wrote:and
(moderni taide) ______________________ on paljon mielenkiintoista. I don´t understand this. I try: modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoista (sounds strange! or?)

It is a bit strange, as it is so vague a statement: almost as if the sentence was incomplete (missing a word or something.) The question that arises is Modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoista mitä?

For example,

Modernissa taiteessa on paljon mielenkiintoisia piirteitä.
or Moderni taide on enimmäkseen mielenkiintoista.
or simply Moderni taide on mielenkiintoista.

would all sound much better.

But since it is a fill-in exercise and you can’t really do anything about it, the inessive case would appear to be your most sensible choice here.

polkkis · Post by **polkkis** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:25 pm

Thanks Jukka!

I´ll check these links.

2)
I would also ask: what? mitä?

Maybe my book is not so good?

Jukka Aho · Post by **Jukka Aho** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:55 pm

polkkis wrote:Maybe my book is not so good?

Fill-in exercises sometimes tend to have these rather strange and unlikely constructions in just about any language and book series. But I wouldn’t say it’s grammatically incorrect. For instance, Modernissa taiteessa on paljon hyvää – which has an identical grammatical structure – sounds OK to me. I think the problem is that the word mielenkiintoista just isn’t conventionally used alone in quite that indefinite way, and that’s what makes the sentence somehow... irritatingly vague.

Jukka Aho · Post by **Jukka Aho** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:04 pm

polkkis wrote:The same: uudessa sanomalehdessä on paljon mielenkiintoista. This sounds also so strange, or? Tai onko kirjassa virhe?

Again, this would sound much better if whatever it is that is “interesting” about the paper was defined in a bit more explicit way:

Uudessa sanomalehdessä on paljon mielenkiintoista luettavaa.
Uudessa sanomalehdessä on useita mielenkiintoisia artikkeleita.

polkkis · Post by **polkkis** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Kiitos paljon Jukka! Many thanks for your help... Now I understand better (I hope so).

enk · Post by **enk** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:19 pm

It's still a crock

The quick and dirty guide to those is that *in general*
if the -niemi or -saari is part of the name of a town, then it is -lla. If it's
part of a district in a town, then it's the illative form -een.

-enk

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:18 am

enk wrote:It's still a crock The quick and dirty guide to those is that *in general*
if the -niemi or -saari is part of the name of a town, then it is -lla. If it's
part of a district in a town, then it's the illative form -een.

-enk

Now I understand ever better!! and I would buy this argument!!
and I'd do as the locals say in a Swedish speaking commune though!!

polkkis · Post by **polkkis** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:29 pm

Hello,

"enk´s" argument is good!I

Rovaniemi (town in Lapland) > Rovaniemelle/ Rovaniemellä
Viitasaari (town in Central Finland) > Viitasaarelle / Viitasaarelle

Munkkiniemi > Munkkiniemeen / Munkkiniemessä
Lauttasaari > Lauttasaareen / Lauttasaaressa
= Munkkiniemi + Lauttasaari are neighbourhoods (kaupunginosa) in Helsinki.

Mark I. · Post by **Mark I.** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:52 pm

BTW it's Rovaniemelle, not Rovaniemeen.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:33 pm

Maybe Joensuu is Joe's mouth, not estuary...

edit: ;P

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