truth about tax percentage, expired food in business

[bkkalyan]

Hi,

Today I came to know the truth about the tax percentage in consumer business in Finland. As usual it is a surprising fact and interesting..

I went to have my lunch at "Paul Bistro" restaurant in Sello shopping mall, Leppävaara. I ate a burger and the cost was 13.90 (no bill was given, never mind). I asked for another burger but that was "take away". I asked for the bill this time. The charge was again 13.90. I looked at the bill and the tax percentage was 22%. To my knowledge it was supposed to be 17%. When I asked about this to the waitress, she said "we did not separate this in our cash machine. I know it is wrong but unfortunately I cannot do anything about it. Your price remains the same". That sounded a rude to me and so I told that I cannot accept a fake bill. The repeated the same answer (may be, because the food was ready). I asked her, "knowingly why are you charging me more than what I am supposed to pay", the answer was "it is our boss who can only correct it in the cash machine". That answer was evasive and so I asked her to write on the back of my bill that it was a "take away" food and put her signature and name. She did that.

I came out and called the authorities here in tax office who takes care of the regulations of business in Finland. The answer shattered me off. He said "it is not getting a good image for the restaurant. They are NOT SUPPOSED to do. They end up paying 22% tax to us instead of 17%. But if they charge always 22% THAT IS STILL OKAY, AND WE CANNOT INTERVENE". I asked them "there is an injustice of pulling more money from the customer is happening, I have the bill with her signature for proof. I am ready to cooperate with you on this. Why do not you warn them". The answer was "there is no such rule in Finland and nobody can do anything about this. I do not know why they are doing this, but sorry we cannot do anything about it. They can charge 22% for everything".

That was a news to me. When I asked
Q: "what is the point of putting a rule then?".
Answer: "We expect people to follow".
Q: "Can they charge any tax percentage in the future"
A: "the machine will not accept illegal tax percentage"
Q: "are you sure nobody can do anything about this in Finland"
A: "unfortunately, yes"

It looks like they are happy receiving 22% tax though customer is forced to pay more than what he should legally!! The food was not tasting great anyhow, but finally ended up paying 26,80 totally!

Another experience I had was in Maharaja (Indian store in Hakaniemi), you will never get bill unless you explicitly ask them (that too before the next customer). When this was brought to the notice of tax officials, they said "they must give you the bill even if you do not ask them every time". STILL NO ACTION ON THIS. Maharaja does double billing sometimes. So please be careful.

Maharaja was selling expired food and I brought this to the notice of officials.Surprising answer was "it is perfectly legal to sell expired food it here in Finland. The customer should understand that he is buying expired food and responsible for any aftermath". That again was a surprise to me. There is no rule to regulate anything here. The expiry date is just an indication according to the officials. The "food safety" authorities told they will visit the shop, looks like nothing happened like that because I always see some expired packets of food being sold in Maharaja, sometime in Mughal too. They put them in the offer prices [they just care for your health:-)]

[Karhunkoski]

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to be a good citizen and bring to the notice of both the authorities and readers of this board.

Next thing would be to contact your MP and ask that the food tax question is raised and discussed in the ministry.

[jas_rho]

McDonald's doesn't have a different price for food if you take it to go or if you eat it there. They say that they treat all of their customers equally and give everyone a fair price no matter where they eat it

[ajdias]

Today I came to know the truth about the tax percentage in consumer business in Finland.

If my interpretation is correct you are wrong. Twice.

When a company charges you an amount, the price already comprises taxes. In other words, you agreed to pay 13,9 for the product not 11,393 plus the 22% VAT. And if they were to charge you 17% VAT (see bellow) they would be keeping 11,88 for themselves. You see, they make the final price according to many factors, one of which is "the maximal amount they can get from you" - noticed how many products have prices ending in 9 or 99?

If they were charging wrong VAT they'd be defeating themselves because they would be able to keep more money for themselves or would make their products more competitive.

However that might not be so; according to the tax guide, you got wrong information from both the waiter (understandable) and the tax office (lost in translation?) Alv should be 22%:

Reduced tax rate of 17%
– food and animal feed (not applied to serving of food and drinks)

>>> Source: Page 3 of the ALV guide

Today you may still come to know the truth about the tax percentage in consumer business in finland. Just read the damn guide

[Rip]

The expiry date is just an indication according to the officials.

Depends on the product, but yes, "best before" ("parasta ennen") is what it says it is, rough indication over what kind of time scale product quality starts to deteriorate, but you are free to ignore it if you wish.

[ajdias]

Actually, to correct myself, the vat should be 12% and not 17%, the tax guide needs updating (it says so on vero pages)

Value added tax -- Reduced VAT rate 12% for food
1740
Change of VAT rate as of 1 October: Reduced food VAT rate 12%. The new 12-percent rate of VAT will be applied as of 1 October 2009 to foodstuffs and animal feed. Within these categories of goods, VAT of 12% will be input, payable or deductible, if the delivery is made, goods have been taken into private use, intra-Community supply has taken place, goods have been transferred from VAT-exempt storehouse, or imported to the country as of 1 October 2009.

http://www.vero.fi/?path=488,489&articl ... ENG&index=_

Is the 17% ALV still in use in Finland?

[Pursuivant]

Food bought from a store was reduced from 17% => 12%. It'll go up to 13% next July when the general ALV rises to 23%. (now *that* will f* up some excels...)... restaurant ALV will go down in July to the 13% as well.

[Pursuivant]

Another experience I had was in Maharaja (Indian store in Hakaniemi), you will never get bill unless you explicitly ask them (that too before the next customer). When this was brought to the notice of tax officials, they said "they must give you the bill even if you do not ask them every time". STILL NO ACTION ON THIS. Maharaja does double billing sometimes. So please be careful.

Funky store, funky business... its though pretty common is small specialist shops like that they order stuff people don't buy so they get out of date. Then if you get always fresh stuff => reflects on the prices... so its egg&chicken problem...

[Rick1]

I agree about those tax offices. Culture there is that: wat we do not see is not there and it is almost 16:00 hours anyhow.

I also found out some creative bookkeeping with km-korvaus and daily allowances (not from my company but from a friend of mine who had big problems with this 'employer'.) I was speaking there (while I had to do my own business) with a lady who probably never had a good day in her life and this was specially not one of the not so bad ones. She could not really be interested in this scheme (probably did not understand it) and said that she will let somebody call me back (two years ago).

So the story is: if you are creative enough and lucky enough.....

Good story from the OP by the way and showing the reluctance and lazyness of many Finns, meaning to say not making clear that somebody is not following the rules in business, or charging you too much.

[bkkalyan]

Thank you for updating me about the correct tax percentage for take away food. It should be 12%.

I do not see any logic behind "making the final price" to be constant all the times, as I myself have paid a little less for "take away" in many restaurants. I myself was having a restaurant in Helsinki area sometime ago and we used to sell "take away" on a little lower price and that is how it should work. You cannot make the base price dynamic in the business. It is only the tax % which is dynamic [for whatever reason. ask the great tax men here in Finland:)]