another one problem

[Jukka Aho]

Hyvästä ystävästä muuttui hän pahimmaksi vihamieheksi.

[...]

I suppose you could also say.....pahimmalle vihamiehelle. .....though that might sound a bit "flat" to the ears of a native speaker????....the ongoing nature, if any, being unclear...???

You mean like this?

Hyvästä ystävästä muuttui hän pahimmalle vihamiehelle.

Or with a more straightforward word order:

Hän muuttui hyvästä ystävästä pahimmalle vihamiehelle.

That doesn’t really work. Now the reader is left scratching his head... what did he turn into... for the worst enemy?

Basically, now it says “He turned from a good friend          (into what?)         for the worst enemy”

Could it be said...or am I being presumptious here with my current level of knowledge.... :ohno: ...that the translative case is, perhaps, of lesser importance than, say, the allative....???

Given that it is probably possible to replace the translative with other, clumsier but still workable alternative expressions, I guess you could say so... if that’s a meaningful comparison. For example, Ensin hän oli hyvä ystävä, mutta sitten hänestä tuli pahin mahdollinen vihollinen.

...And, further, does the apparent use of this excessive case in some of the eastern dialects reflect, perhaps, a more retrospective cultural outlook....????.... :D

I think I’ll leave that assessment to our Eastern Finnish readers...

[Upphew]

Hyväntä ystäväntä muuttui hän pahimmaksi vihamieheksiu] muuttui hän pahimmaksi vihamieheksi.

When I read this, I wondered why Jukka doesn't pick that "Hyväntä ystäväntä" as pure nonsense.

After reading about exessive case and after Jukka called assessments from the east, I got that that nonsense is (probably) grammatically correct. But as someone who has lived most of his life in Lappeenranta with family and friends from Southern Savo, I'd say that you wont hear that case used that way. In your example someone is transforming from something to something else, which seems to be the "real meaning" of the case. In real life I have heard it used (and I use it myself too) only in the locative sense: "Haenks mie siut kotonta, vai nähäänks kaupalla?" -> "Haenko minä sinut kotoa, vai tapaammeko kaupalla?"

With wikipedia's articles it is good habit to check both English and Finnish one, usually because the English one is better, but some times it is other way, especially when dealing with things that are not so interesting for the bigger audiences.

[Jukka Aho]

When I read this, I wondered why Jukka doesn't pick that "Hyväntä ystäväntä" as pure nonsense.

It looked strange to me as well but Rob introduced it with the words “here’s an example”, so the logical assumption was he copied/quoted it from another source... instead of coming up with it himself.

Searching for it now reveals the phrase is mentioned on the website of the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland, which is as authoritative as it gets, I guess. But... the context appears to be a 19th century suggestion, made by a contemporary linguist, about adding the excessive to the “official” Finnish grammar. So perhaps that sentence never was natural usage but rather an example of how the excessive could be used in a generalized fashion if it were introduced to Finnish proper? Or maybe it was an example of earlier dialectal usage that has faded away since those times...

[Rob A.]

When I read this, I wondered why Jukka doesn't pick that "Hyväntä ystäväntä" as pure nonsense.

It looked strange to me as well but Rob introduced it with the words “here’s an example”, so the logical assumption was he copied/quoted it from another source... instead of coming up with it himself.

Yes....I did quote it from another source, that seemed to have some credibility....but it wasn't the kotus.fi site....though that appears to have been the inital source.... I actually found the "kotus.fi" site last night and was able to work my way through it with some help....

Essentially, the eksessiivi in was an 1800-luvulla effort to try to introduce this case into standard Finnish.... While going through this article... and as an "objective", non-native speaker with no "preconceived" notions.... ....I could see quite clearly the logic in using such a case..... But, of course, things don't work this way in "real-life"....the world is only a semi-logical place ...

Interestingly, and unknown to me at the time, the example I used was attributed to none other than that utopian dreamer, Matti Kurikka...a key figure in the Finnish colony, Sointula, on the British Columbia coast .....that surprised me ....I suppose Kurikka would have first spoken an eastern dialect as a child....he was born in Ingria in a village south of Saint Petersburg.....

Another example of the eksessiivi attributed to him is this:

Terveeksi tärähtäneentä ...perhaps rather fitting considering his world view....

Here's a rather blunt article about Kurikka's utopia...this was written in 1941 and published in the Turun historiallinen arkisto in 1976....

Back to the eksessiivi....according to the kotus.fi article the current view on the use of the eksessiivi is that it would nicely "balance" things out:

Suomen kielen sijajärjestelmään kuuluvat mm. sisäpaikallissijat sisätulento (illatiivi, esim. ministeriin), sisäolento (inessiivi, ministerissä) ja sisäeronto (elatiivi, ministeristä). Yleiskieleen kuuluvat myös yleiset paikallissijat tulento (translatiivi, ministeriksi) ja olento (essiivi, ministerinä), mutta ”eronto” puuttuu.

....but it just isn't likely to happen....

Eksessiivin käyttökelpoisuutta ovat tähdentäneet myöhemmätkin kielenhuoltokirjoittajat, tunnettu kielimies Terho Itkonenkin vielä 1980-luvun puolivälissä Helsingin Sanomien Kielikolkka-palstallaan. Aiheellisesti hän päätyi toteamaan, että eksessiivin kaltainen syrjäisen murrealueen ilmiö tuskin voi päästä yleiskielen vakiintuneeksi osaksi. Käytännöllinen eksessiivi kuitenkin olisi, ja se myös täyttäisi sellaisen ilmaisujärjestelmämme aukon, josta emme tavallisesti ole tietoisiakaan.....

Finally it's also interesting to see the Finnish case names written using Finnish-origin words.....

...sisätulento, (illative); sisäolento, (inessive); sisäeronto, (elative) and tulento, (translative); and olento,(essive)..... The words used are, of course, calques from, ultimately, the original Latin words....but I think for school-age children, learning about their own language, words they can clearly relate to, rather than pompous, "educated" words would greatly enhance the learning process. In English, the Latin origin words are used and, of course, the result is, for the most part, that they are just "labels" which for most people don't convey any immediate meaning....even though they are based on straightforward Latin words.

Of course, English is so full of these kinds of words, one does eventually understand that "trans" words will have a sense of movement, "ex" words will mean "away from", "in" words, "in" or "into"....and for those who are really alert, that "il-", a kind of Latin version of pronunciation harmony, means, "in" as well...

[Jukka Aho]

Interestingly, and unknown to me at the time, the example I used was attributed to none other than that utopian dreamer, Matti Kurikka...a key figure in the Finnish colony, Sointula, on the British Columbia coast

Oh, I missed that connection. Interesting, indeed.

I suppose Kurikka would have first spoken an eastern dialect as a child....he was born in Ingria in a village south of Saint Petersburg.....

As a sidenote, kurikka is an old word for “club” – either a spiky club used as a weapon or a certain type of flattened club which was used while washing clothes, for beating them. (This was before they invented the washboard.)

There’s an Ostrobothnian town called Kurikka. Their old coat-of-arms featured two crossed spiky clubs. They have recently merged with a neighboring town, famous for its wooden furniture handicraft industry, and changed the coat-of-arms into a simpler design which features a dovetail joint. You can visit Kurikka by the power of the all-seeing Google Street View. (Kurikka has many splendid attractions, such as the kusikivi! [see here as well])

Finally it's also interesting to see the Finnish case names written using Finnish-origin words.....

The Finnish names have fallen out of fashion. Or at least we never used them in school. When you see them used now, it’s usually in contexts where they’re used for effect... specifically because they do sound delightfully quaint and old-fashioned now.

[Rob A.]

....As a sidenote, kurikka is an old word for “club” – either a spiky club used as a weapon or a certain type of flattened club which was used while washing clothes, for beating them. (This was before they invented the washboard.)

....and the "military" version, in English, is the "mace"....no Finnish language entry....but "Club (weapon)" yields "Pamppu" ...and no relevant entry for "Kurikka" in Finnish Wiki.... Hey, a project for someone!!!....

The "mace" is also the ceremonial club that has to be in place at the opening of Parliament...and I see that it is used in the US Congress as well... A symbol of authority....of course, why not?? ....the club....the oldest of weapons....so who thinks we aren't really still cavemen at heart??....

There’s an Ostrobothnian town called Kurikka. Their old coat-of-arms featured two crossed spiky clubs. They have recently merged with a neighboring town, famous for its wooden furniture handicraft industry, and changed the coat-of-arms into a simpler design which features a dovetail joint.....

I had a look....I suppose that would be the town hall on Asematie???.....the coat-of-arms symbol is rather subtle, I would think.... I prefer the ...vanha vaakuna ...epäkohtelias hiirvi ...sojottavan kielen kanssa ja ristineet kurikat ....

(Kurikka has many splendid attractions, such as the kusikivi! [see here as well])

Yes....I see ...the Royal Loo ...so to speak.... and I like that delicate expression.... ....kuninkaalliset poikkesivat tämän kiven taakse tarpeilleen..... Anteeksi...minun täytyy poiketa tarpeelleni........

Finally it's also interesting to see the Finnish case names written using Finnish-origin words.....

The Finnish names have fallen out of fashion. Or at least we never used them in school. When you see them used now, it’s usually in contexts where they’re used for effect... specifically because they do sound delightfully quaint and old-fashioned now.

.....Hmmmmm...and to me the use of such words sounds sensible and practical....but then what do I know about it........vain toinen ulkomaalainen!!....Perkele!!!....

[Rob A.]

..... In real life I have heard it used (and I use it myself too) only in the locative sense: "Haenks mie siut kotonta, vai nähäänks kaupalla?" -> "Haenko minä sinut kotoa, vai tapaammeko kaupalla?"

With wikipedia's articles it is good habit to check both English and Finnish one, usually because the English one is better, but some times it is other way, especially when dealing with things that are not so interesting for the bigger audiences.

I seem to remember reading that any remaining uses of this grammatical "case" in more standard Finnish are fixed in form.... and it would seem to me that kotonta is one of these "frozen" forms...the remains of an old way of saying something.... Does it have any special sense or just another way of saying kotoa ...and meaning the exact same thing????

[Aside: English has things like that too, of course....eg...."the quick and the dead"...most people intuitively know what this means....and although "quick" is used in other ways now....it once meant... "live"..... and old term in English for the element, "mercury" is "quicksilver" and has the exact same sense as the Finnish word ..."elohopea"... ]

And I agree that we have to be careful using wikipedia.... if I have any serious doubts about something I read there I try to check it out somewhere else....though, again, that isn't foolproof....things get copied and pasted continually....

[Bavarian]

(Kurikka has many splendid attractions, such as the kusikivi! [see here as well])

Somebody just mentioned the Haku Päällä in another thread, but I'll be damned if I can find where that thread went to.

[Jukka Aho]

the "military" version, in English, is the "mace"....no Finnish language entry....

There’s another word, nuija, which is usually used for the club-as-weapon. (You might also want to look up nuijasota.)

but "Club (weapon)" yields "Pamppu"

That’s nightstick, also jocularly known as Nokian nuoriso-ohjaaja (mind you, Nokia used to make tissue paper and rubber products before they became the mobile phone giant they’re today.) See here and here.

I had a look [at Kurikka on Google Street View]....I suppose that would be the town hall on Asematie???

That’s right. Finest utilitarian late-1960s or early-1970s concrete design, I would guess...

the coat-of-arms symbol is rather subtle, I would think.... I prefer the ...vanha vaakuna ...epäkohtelias hiirvi ...sojottavan kielen kanssa ja ristineet kurikat ....:D

Ristiä is an active verb form which requires a subject; someone or something who is responsible for the action. (For example, He ovat ristineet kurikat.)

The solution: use the passive past participle: ristiä → ristitty : ristityt. Ristityt kurikat.

However, there’s still one problem with this: ristiä is also the colloquial synonym for baptizing someone and it’s commonly used in other religious contexts too (ristiä kätensä). To avoid any confusion with these religious uses you might want to use the expression ristiin laitetut kurikat or ristiin asetetut kurikat, instead.

Eräs vaakunan elementti on kaksi ristiin asetettua kurikkaa.

You could also use kurikat ristissä:

Vaakunassa on kaksi kurikkaa ristissä.
Kurikat ovat ristissä.

Colloquial speech; the speaker is assuming the listeners know what he’s talking about so he simply uses kurikat:
– Siinä vaakunassa on kurikat ristissä.
– Kurikat ristissä? Mikä on kurikka?

(Kurikka has many splendid attractions, such as the kusikivi! [see here as well])

Yes....I see ...the Royal Loo ...so to speak.... and I like that delicate expression.... ....kuninkaalliset poikkesivat tämän kiven taakse tarpeilleen..... Anteeksi...minun täytyy poiketa tarpeelleni........:lol:

Here, the usage of poiketa refers to the fact they had this itinerary they were following... but they then momentarily deviated or branched off from that path when the nature called. Normally – if you’re not traveling from place A to place B – you’d simply say mennä tarpeilleen. Minun täytyy mennä tarpeilleni. Or you could use the alternative, käydä tarpeillaan: Minun täytyy käydä tarpeillani. (Note that they use different cases for the word tarve. Also note usage of the plural of tarve : tarpeet – it’s usually not used in the singular in this context.)

Mennä tarpeilleen / käydä tarpeillaan are expressions which are used if you want to write about such things in as neutral and unoffensive way as possible: for example, in an article or opinion piece published in a newspaper. The original, complete expression is actually luonnolliset tarpeet; a prudish reference to those embarrassing things which remind us of being part of nature... and animals, in the end.

Finally it's also interesting to see the Finnish case names written using Finnish-origin words.....

The Finnish names have fallen out of fashion. Or at least we never used them in school. When you see them used now, it’s usually in contexts where they’re used for effect... specifically because they do sound delightfully quaint and old-fashioned now.

.....Hmmmmm...and to me the use of such words sounds sensible and practical....but then what do I know about it........vain toinen ulkomaalainen!!....Perkele!!!.... :wink:

Yeah, that’s part of learning languages, I’m afraid. ;) But seriously, sisäolento and ulko-olento sound like some dubious Freudian concepts... or some creepy creatures out of the X-Files...

[Rob A.]

Another thought I had about this theortical eksessiivi.......

I was thinking about the saying:

Onko lasi puoleksi täynnä vaiko puoleksi tyhjä?

So if the eksessiivi were actually part of standard Finnish, I think this saying would become:

Onko lasi puoleksi täynnä vaiko *puolenta täynnä?


I think my "logic" is right....puoleksi would suggest increasing toward half-full and *puolenta would suggest decreasing toward half-full....

Ok, ok....just some stray thoughts ....