puoli vs puolet

[Satish]

I have come across puoli having two main meanings - side and half. In terms of the 'half' meaning, can someone please tell me when to use the singular form and when the plural form applies? I came across a definition which kind of said:

"Dependent 'half' is expressed with singular: puoli tuntia = half an hour. Puolet appears only in plural when in refers independently to 'half' of something."

So does that mean:
I cut the cake in half. - Leikkasin kakun puolissa.
Half the cake was stale. - Puoli kakkua oli väljähtynyttä.

[Jukka Aho]

So does that mean:
I cut the cake in half. - Leikkasin kakun puolissa.

In Finnish, you cut the cake “[turning it] into halves”:

    Leikkasin kakun puoliksi.

Half the cake was stale. - Puoli kakkua oli väljähtynyttä.

OK, except the adjective väljähtynyt is usually used for fizzy drinks that have gone stale, not cakes. I’m not sure what you would call a “stale” cake in Finnish. Maybe just...

    Puolet kakusta oli mennyt vanhan/huonon makuiseksi.

...or...

    Puolet kakusta oli mennyt vanhaksi/huonoksi.

(Edit: Fixed the explanation below, which was originally incorrect and misleading.)

You can say...

    Puoli kakkua oli mennyt vanhan/huonon makuiseksi.
    Puoli kakkua oli mennyt vanhaksi/huonoksi.

...as well, it doesn’t sound too bad, even though I’d prefer puolet kakusta myself. I think the choice depends on whether whether we’re referring to 1) a complete, whole half of the cake (puolet + the elative complement kakusta) or 2) a cake which has not necessarily been cut at all but of which approximately half has gone stale (puoli + the partitive complement kakkua... kakku is being treated as a mass noun.)

[Upphew]

"Dependent 'half' is expressed with singular: puoli tuntia = half an hour. Puolet appears only in plural when in refers independently to 'half' of something."

So does that mean:
I cut the cake in half. - Leikkasin kakun puolissa.
Half the cake was stale. - Puoli kakkua oli väljähtynyttä.

Leikkasin kakun puolissa - I cut the cake in the halves. So in two exact half cuts or something like that. In Finnish you cut your one cake to two halves so: Leikkasin kakun puoliksi.

Puoli kakkua oli väljähtynyttä. Sounds ok, although I'd say Puoli kakkua oli väljähtänyt or Puolet kakusta oli väljähtänyt.

[Jukka Aho]

Leikkasin kakun puolissa - I cut the cake in the halves. So in two exact half cuts or something like that.

Hmm... I can’t get that sense at all. I think in this sentence, the word puolissa would appear to be referring to something else than the cake altogether: to the location or the (mental) state of the subject, for example. A bit like...

    Leikkasin kakun tuolissa.
    Leikkasin kakun kännissä.

But there’s no established meaning for puolissa as a location or a mental state, so it leaves you wondering about what was meant.

Oh, wait. There’s the word puola (“a rung [of a ladder etc.]”), of course. And puolapuut, “stall bars”, which have many rungs (puolat).

So...

    Leikkasin kakun puolissa.

...could mean you’re cutting the cake while it has been stuffed in-between the rungs of stall bars. Come to think of it, it could even mean you’re possibly using the rungs themselves as a tool for cutting the cake!

Or perhaps if there’s a big pile of these rungs lying about somewhere – say, in a factory that makes stall bars – you could be sitting in that pile of rungs, puolissa, and cutting your cake. Nothing wrong with that sentence, really...

[Satish]

    Puolet kakusta oli mennyt vanhaksi/huonoksi.

Note that this is the -T accusative, not the plural as such, as you can see from the verb still being in the singular.

Does that mean that olla or mennä takes an object??

More generally, how do you decide whether "half" in the sentence is in the singular or plural?

[Satish]

Oh, wait. There’s the word puola (“a rung [of a ladder etc.]”), of course. And puolapuut, “stall bars”, which have many rungs (puolat).

So...

    Leikkasin kakun puolissa.

...could mean you’re cutting the cake while it has been stuffed in-between the rungs of stall bars. Come to think of it, it could even mean you’re possibly using the rungs themselves as a tool for cutting the cake!

That's exactly what I was thinking. Now you know why half of it went flat!

[Jukka Aho]

Does that mean that olla or mennä takes an object?? :?

Not really. Sorry, it was an incorrect explanation; sloppy thinking on my part. My bad. I’ve removed the references to the accusative from the original post now. It’s more of a case of certain kind of elative expressions describing a whole, and partitive expressions describing a part of a whole. Probably not totally unrelated to objects and the -T accusative – there are certain similarities – but not exactly the same thing. See below.

More generally, how do you decide whether "half" in the sentence is in the singular or plural?

I had a long hard think about this, and then had to turn to Iso suomen kielioppi.

• § 778 Puoli ja puolet
• § 592 Lauseketyyppi osa kirjasta, joukko lapsia, litra maitoa
• § 781 Puolitoista, kaksi ja puoli
• § 935 Vaihtelematon t-akkusatiivi ja monikko

The first link, § 778, appears to be the most relevant. It says:

“The word puoli, when referring to a fractional number, takes NP complement in the partitive (a) when it is being used in the nominative, which is similar to how numerals behave in general. When used in other cases, it agrees with the case of the noun (b). As a total object, puoli is in the nominative (c).

The singular nominative puoli is replaced with the plural form puolet either if it appears alone, or if it is connected to an elative expression describing a whole (d). In any other case than the nominative, a singular form is used (e).”

(The letters in the parenthesis refer to the example sentences.)

§ 592 discusses the usage and meaning of those elative expressions, so you might want to take a look at that one, too.

[Satish]

“The word puoli, when referring to a fractional number, takes NP complement in the partitive (a) when it is being used in the nominative, which is similar to how numerals behave in general. When used in other cases, it agrees with the case of the noun (b). As a total object, puoli is in the nominative (c).

The singular nominative puoli is replaced with the plural form puolet either if it appears alone, or if it is connected to an elative expression describing a whole (d). In any other case than the nominative, a singular form is used (e).”

(The letters in the parenthesis refer to the example sentences.)

§ 592 discusses the usage and meaning of those elative expressions, so you might want to take a look at that one, too.

Ooh, this is starting to help! Thanks as always
Will read this some more after I have rested my knee which is now "half bunged up" from skiing....

[Pursuivant]

So does that mean:
I cut the cake in half. - Leikkasin kakun puolissa.
Half the cake was stale. - Puoli kakkua oli väljähtynyttä.

I cut the cake in (two equal) halves. puoliksi
(The other) half (of) the cake was stale. puolet

OK, so figure this one out

Minua pyydettiin esittelemään parempi puoleni, joten valautin housut kinttuihin.

[Satish]

OK, so figure this one out

Minua pyydettiin esittelemään parempi puoleni, joten valautin housut kinttuihin.

The easy part was housut kintuissa = with one's pants down as Wiktionary will give you directly, but valautin is tricky. The closest I found was valahtaa = to slip, drop or fall off, so the verb here could be valautua = to slip clothes off one's self? So my guess is:

People asked me to present my better side, so I slipped my pants off.

[Jukka Aho]

valautin is tricky. The closest I found was valahtaa = to slip, drop or fall off, so the verb here could be valautua = to slip clothes off one's self?

The normal, active (momentane) verb form would be valauttaa. Valautua is a possible verb, too – at least theoretically speaking – but it would refer to the subject (!) progressively going through the process of valahtaminen, taking some time in doing that. Compare to: raahata, raahautua.

The verbs valahtaa and valauttaa usually refer to a cloth (or other fabric-like, sheet-like easily folding material) getting unfastened and quickly and suddenly dropping/falling/folding to the ground. Iso mainosjuliste valahti maahan.

So my guess is:

People asked me to present my better side, so I slipped my pants off.

That would be correct. Or incorrect, depending on how much of a prude you are.

[Upphew]

So my guess is:

People asked me to present my better side, so I slipped my pants off.

That would be correct. Or incorrect, depending on how much of a prude you are.

But the joke is much better if you rephrase it: "People asked me to introduce my better half, so I slipped my pants off."

[Satish]

The normal, active (momentane) verb form would be valauttaa. Valautua is a possible verb, too – at least theoretically speaking – but it would refer to the subject (!) progressively going through the process of valahtaminen, taking some time in doing that. Compare to: raahata, raahautua.

The comment about valauttaa interests me. I thought -ttaa verbs were causative i.e syöttää vs syödä etc. Did you mean valahtaa with the -ahta- part as the clear give away for momentane aspect?

But the joke is much better if you rephrase it: "People asked me to introduce my better half, so I slipped my pants off."

How true! Now I need to say "Saanko esitellä..." with a straight face

[Pursuivant]

The pun is in that "half" in Finnish also refers to "side", so front-side and back-side are etupuoli and takapuoli...

And the thing about valauttaa/valahtaa

Minulta valahti housut kinttuihin (they just done it honest milord)
Minä valautin housut kinttuihin (I plead the fifth)

[Rob A.]

Ooh, this is starting to help! Thanks as always
Will read this some more after I have rested my knee which is now "half bunged up" from skiing....

....ja myös minä ...... jälkeen lepuutan mun vasen etusormini joka puoli-katkaisin "buck" sahan kanssa....

OK...two things....can you change the verb katkaista in this way??....making a kind of "compound" verb out of it??.... and how would you say, "bucksaw" or "Swede saw" in Finnish???