saatakoomme

[Satish]

I hope anybody who actually wants to learn functional, contemporary Finnish will NOT read this thread and try to understand what is it about (only philologically interested....). That language is not proper finnish, it is an imitation of archaic languages which is intended to be humoristic (IMO on top of that "saatakoomme" is erronous). This kind of attention to cases and expressions which are not in use in colloquial Finnish just consumes the energy people should devote to learning the Finnish we speak and write in everyday life.

In Finnish the sentence would sound:

Käytetään se hyväksi, jotta saadaan parempia (ääni)levyjä.

Nobody would use that language. Being able to analyse that sentence would help you to read Kalevala in Finnish but not to communicate at work or similar.

Apologies if I have broken the rules of this forum. I do want to learn contemporary Finnish but every once in a while, I get tempted by interesting things that I find. To my travel companions on this little adventure...

When you set out for Ithaca
ask that your way be long,
full of adventure, full of instruction.
.....
Have Ithaca always in your mind.
Your arrival there is what you are destined for.
But don't in the least hurry the journey.
Better it last for years.....
.....
And if you find her poor, Ithaca hasn't deceived you.
So wise you have become, of such experience,
that already you'll have understood what these Ithacas mean.

Extracts from "Ithaca" by Constantine P Cavafy

[inkku]

Satish, my apologies . My intention was not to criticize your efforts to learn Finnish but i was concerned for the others who might not have similar knowledge and skills; to warn them that these complicated expressions do not represent the kind of ordinary language Finns would use. Similarly, my comment was more geared towards my compatriots who on the one hand encourage this attention to archaic/obsolete Finnish without giving the real picture and on the other hand repeat how difficult or impossible it is to learn Finnish (therefore, you will not get a job and cannot move to to Finland etc etc; you know the liturgy on this board).

To facilitate learning Finnish one should streamline and concentrate on the most common components and structures of the language. Just an example, there are (too) many cases in Finnish but many of them are not anymore actively used in the spoken language, thus they should not be regarded with too much attention in the basic curriculum for foreigners. In everyday language, they have been replaced for example with structures applying prepositions. Instead of "rahatta", people often prefer to say ilman rahaa, or similarly rahojen kanssa instead of "rahoineen". Using various cases is perhaps considered more refined language and it is good to recognize their meaning but basically the attention imo should be geared towards helping people to get passable colloquial language skills (and consequently helping them to become integrated into this society). I am really worried that an emphasis on complicated but useless language will actually put people off from learning Finnish because it will just look completely incomprehensible.

Many kudos to you for devoting all these efforts on learning Finnish , you seem to have reached a very advanced level in Finnish language where you can play with words which is really admirable.

[Jukka Aho]

encourage this attention to archaic/obsolete Finnish

You seem to regard Finnish students, at large, a) as uniform mass of immigrants, or would-be immigrants, who only strive for learning the very basics of everyday survival language, and b) unable to decide about the focus of their attention and interests for themselves, instead requiring strong outside guidance to wrestle them away from “forbidden” or “too-advanced-for-you” topics.

I agree with you in that whenever the discussion delves into a topic that is particularly academical in its nature and of little practical value in everyday communications, it should be explicitly noted that this is so. But otherwise, I find that attitude a bit patronizing... and maybe oblivious to the fact there are different types of language learners with markedly different kinds of interests and goals they have set for themselves.

• • •

If this board truly were primarily about practical, everyday, “survival” Finnish, we’d be having a lot more discussion about the quirks of spoken language (both the generic, “neutral” spoken language and the vocabulary and expressions found in regional dialects) as well as discussion about everyday things such as grocery shopping, dialogue in TV and movies, hobbies, expressions and idioms found in magazine articles and books, street/youth language, public signage and whatnot. For some reason or the other, there’s currently very little of that, and there appears to be more interest in grammatical details and the usage and meaning of isolated words. Maybe it is a reflection of the theoretical way how Finnish is said to be taught in most Finnish courses?

[Satish]

Satish, my apologies .

Umm.. No need and no worries!!!

As always, this forum gives me lot of food for thought...

My intention was not to criticize your efforts to learn Finnish but i was concerned for the others who might not have similar knowledge and skills; to warn them that these complicated expressions do not represent the kind of ordinary language Finns would use.

My favourite is spending lots of time trying to get the pronunciation of Saisinko tilata suklaakakkua? with all the back vowels and vowel lengthenings just right and the waitress replies in flawless English - Oh, you mean a brownie?

I am really worried that an emphasis on complicated but useless language will actually put people off from learning Finnish because it will just look completely incomprehensible.

Yeah, fair cop on that one. From my side, I am guilty of having a 'bookish' perspective since I have not been able to get to talking classes and my missus is not Finnish. There is only that much I can 'riff' with the check out guy at Lidl! BUT I have just spent Vappu evening at the karoake bar singing Finnish songs, so the next chapter of my learning has commenced! Be very afraid...

If this board truly were primarily about practical, everyday, “survival” Finnish, we’d be having a lot more discussion about the quirks of spoken language – both the generic, “neutral” spoken language and the vocabulary and expressions found in regional dialects – as well as discussion about everyday things such as grocery shopping, dialogue in TV and movies, hobbies, expressions found in magazine articles, street/youth language, public signage and whatnot. For some reason or the other, there’s currently very little of that.

This point really had me going.. If I think back to my first posts on this forum, they were of practical things - I especially remember one about the difference between vihanneksia and juureksia signs at the supermarket and how I got one of the most comprehensive explanations possible! So, why do the conversations quickly drift away from that? Well, I think it is becauses the resources to learn and "uncode" Finnish at that basic level are just so good! We have forums such as these, internet resources, friends etc who get us beyond this level very quickly. Grammar books take care of the 'meat and 3 veggies' so what remains is talking about the tricky stuff - metaphors, colloquialisms and every once in a while reminders to stop reading old books from the Kirpputori..

Take care guys and enjoy the glorious sunny spring weather...

[Rob A.]

encourage this attention to archaic/obsolete Finnish

You seem to regard Finnish students, at large, a) as uniform mass of immigrants, or would-be immigrants, who only strive for learning the very basics of everyday survival language, and b) unable to decide about the focus of their attention and interests for themselves, instead requiring strong outside guidance to wrestle them away from “forbidden” or “too-advanced-for-you” topics.

I agree with you in that whenever the discussion delves into a topic that is particularly academical in its nature and of little practical value in everyday communications, it should be explicitly noted that this is so. But otherwise, I find that attitude a bit patronizing... and maybe oblivious to the fact there are different types of language learners with markedly different kinds of interests and goals they have set for themselves.

.....

Yes...I pretty much agree with this.... I tend to think of the FF kielikoulu as a supplement to my language learning efforts.... that I have to take what I get..... All who post in these, or any other threads, are doing it out of interest or for some other non-pecuniary reason.... Presumably it's a "two-street".... Nevertheless, I'm grateful for any help I get...

And I would think most people are able to take what they can from these threads....if some of the topics are over their heads at the moment.....that's just the way it is.... Opiskelijat ovat eri taitotasoilla....[is there a better way to say this]....

I, also, find that discussing some particular word or phrase, however arcane, will often lead on to something else.... you know ....the synergistic effect.... and it might even be something "practical"...

[Jukka Aho]

Opiskelijat ovat eri taitotasoilla....[is there a better way to say this].... :ochesey:

Not necessarily any better but here are some alternative or related expressions:

Opiskelijat edistyvät eri tahtiin/tahtia.
Jotkut opiskelijat ovat muita pidemmällä.
Toiset opiskelijat ovat pidemmällä kuin toiset.
Jotkut opiskelijat tähtäävät muita pidemmälle.

[Rob A.]

Opiskelijat ovat eri taitotasoilla....[is there a better way to say this]....

Not necessarily any better but here are some alternative or related expressions:

Opiskelijat edistyvät eri tahtiin/tahtia.
Jotkut opiskelijat ovat muita pidemmällä.
Toiset opiskelijat ovat pidemmällä kuin toiset.
Jotkut opiskelijat tähtäävät muita pidemmälle.

Hmmmm....these are tougher than they look...

Here are my, more or less, literal translations:

1. Opiskelijat edistyvät eri tahtiin/tahtia.
="Students advance to different pace..."...??...and why tahtia in the partitive singular...???....what would be the literal translation of the sentence using, tahtia?

2. Jotkut opiskelijat ovat muita pidemmällä.
="Some students are others [partitive plural] on-higher [adessive singular comparative]...hmmmm...what is the literal translation for [muita pidemmällä]???

3. Toiset opiskelijat ovat pidemmällä kuin toiset.
="Other students are on-higher than others."....I think this is more or less it...I think a reasonable English translation would be..."Some students are more advanced than others."

4. Jotkut opiskelijat tähtäävät muita pidemmälle.
="Some students strive others [partitive plural] to-higher [allative plural comparative]". ???

I guess I need to figure out what "muita pidempi" means.....

[Edit: How soon some of us forget... .... Lisa on Pekkaa vanhempi......muita pidempi= higher than others..... ]

[Rob A.]

Satish, my apologies .

Umm.. No need and no worries!!!

As always, this forum gives me lot of food for thought...

Yes...me too...

I am really worried that an emphasis on complicated but useless language will actually put people off from learning Finnish because it will just look completely incomprehensible.

Yeah, fair cop on that one. From my side, I am guilty of having a 'bookish' perspective since I have not been able to get to talking classes and my missus is not Finnish. There is only that much I can 'riff' with the check out guy at Lidl! BUT I have just spent Vappu evening at the karoake bar singing Finnish songs, so the next chapter of my learning has commenced! Be very afraid...

Yes...It seems I've got a "bookish" approach as well.... Hopefully others are able to get something out of these threads.... But, in any event, it seems to work for me...

If this board truly were primarily about practical, everyday, “survival” Finnish, we’d be having a lot more discussion about the quirks of spoken language – both the generic, “neutral” spoken language and the vocabulary and expressions found in regional dialects – as well as discussion about everyday things such as grocery shopping, dialogue in TV and movies, hobbies, expressions found in magazine articles, street/youth language, public signage and whatnot. For some reason or the other, there’s currently very little of that.

This point really had me going.. If I think back to my first posts on this forum, they were of practical things - I especially remember one about the difference between vihanneksia and juureksia signs at the supermarket and how I got one of the most comprehensive explanations possible! So, why do the conversations quickly drift away from that? Well, I think it is becauses the resources to learn and "uncode" Finnish at that basic level are just so good! We have forums such as these, internet resources, friends etc who get us beyond this level very quickly. Grammar books take care of the 'meat and 3 veggies' so what remains is talking about the tricky stuff - metaphors, colloquialisms and every once in a while reminders to stop reading old books from the Kirpputori..

I, too, have found lots of resources on 'net....and I guess I tend to bring the stuff I consider "difficult" to the forum.... Though "difficult" is a relative term .... I think learning a language goes on forever....we even spend a life time learning our own native languages... a language is far more than its grammatical rules and vocabulary....

[Jukka Aho]

1. Opiskelijat edistyvät eri tahtiin/tahtia.
="Students advance to different pace..."...??...and why tahtia in the partitive singular...???....what would be the literal translation of the sentence using, tahtia?

The word tahti means first and foremost “[synchronous, regular] beat”. In this case, the most idiomatic English translation would be “pace”, of course, but if you want to “think Finnish”, some kind of a regular beat – faster or slower – is what you usually should be thinking when you see that word.

I gave you two alternative forms. In so far as I can see there’s no practical difference to them, and being idioms, there might not be any single, generally accepted explanation as to what they would “literally” mean. But here’s one possible interpretation:

Opiskelijat edistyvät [kukin] eri tahtiin.
“The students advance [each] to a different beat.”

Opiskelijat edistyvät [kukin seuraten] eri tahtia.
“The students advance [each following] a different beat.”

[Edit: How soon some of us forget... :oops: .... Lisa on Pekkaa vanhempi......muita pidempi= higher than others.....:D ]

Correct, except the adjective pitkä does not really refer to heights or elevation. (There’s the word korkea for that.) Pitkä can mean “height” (tallness) when you’re referring to people, but usually it would refer to length, or distance. Here, some of the students have figuratively advanced (traveled) farther than their peers on the course of learning something: they’re closer to the “goal”, so to speak... however that might be defined.

Hän on muita pidemmällä opinnoissaan.
= “He’s further along in his studies than the others.”

[Rob A.]

1. Opiskelijat edistyvät eri tahtiin/tahtia.
="Students advance to different pace..."...??...and why tahtia in the partitive singular...???....what would be the literal translation of the sentence using, tahtia?

The word tahti means first and foremost “[synchronous, regular] beat”. In this case, the most idiomatic English translation would be “pace”, of course, but if you want to “think Finnish”, some kind of a regular beat – faster or slower – is what you usually should be thinking when you see that word.

I gave you two alternative forms. In so far as I can see there’s no practical difference to them, and being idioms, there might not be any single, generally accepted explanation as to what they would “literally” mean. But here’s one possible interpretation:

Opiskelijat edistyvät [kukin] eri tahtiin.
“The students advance [each] to a different beat.”

Opiskelijat edistyvät [kukin seuraten] eri tahtia.
“The students advance [each following] a different beat.”

[Edit: How soon some of us forget... .... Lisa on Pekkaa vanhempi......muita pidempi= higher than others..... ]

Correct, except the adjective pitkä does not really refer to heights or elevation. (There’s the word korkea for that.) Pitkä can mean “height” (tallness) when you’re referring to people, but usually it would refer to length, or distance. Here, some of the students have figuratively advanced (traveled) farther than their peers on the course of learning something: they’re closer to the “goal”, so to speak... however that might be defined.

Hän on muita pidemmällä opinnoissaan.
= “He’s further along in his studies than the others.”

Thanks

...here are a couple more sentences I've been parsing....we've been here before, I realize ...so it's a bit of practice....

Paarmoja on maailmassa 2 500 lajia, joista Suomessa 37.....Literally ...."Horse-fly [partitive plural] is in-world 2,500 species [partitive plural...this word is always plural in English], which-from [elative plural] in-Finland (is) 37."

This is an example of that grammatical construction known as the existential sentence.... where "paarmoja" appears to be the subject of the sentence, but is actually part of the direct object ...I think it's part of lthe direct object...??? The typical English way of say this would be:

"There are 2,500 species of horse-fly in the world, of which 37 are in Finland."


....and a little more...Naaraat käyttävät ravintonaan nisäkkäistä ja linnuista imettyä verta, urokset vain kasvien mettä....this sentence is more straightforward looking for an English speaker....

Literally..."Female (of animals)[nominative plural] use [3rd person plural] as-its-nourishment [essive singular 3rd person possessive] from-mammal [elative plural] and from-bird [elative plural] suck (I'm not sure about this ...I think it's a passive past participle from the verb, imeä=to suck] blood [partitive singular], male [nominative plural] only (use) plant [genitive plural] nectar [partitive singular]."... Any mistakes in this analysis...???

In standard English..."For nourishment, females use blood sucked from mammals and birds, males only use plant nectar."....
........

Uusi kielemme explains the existential sentence this way:

http://www.uusikielemme.fi/partitiveplural.html

....the basic idea is there, but the explanation doesn't seem to be very "expansive"...

[Rob A.]

See this thread for a follow-up on existential sentences:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45375