'suomi' -> 'suomEn' but 'ruotsi' -> 'ruotsIn'

[-Kielo-]

I have been wondering about why 'i' turns into 'e' in the case such as 'suomi' --> 'suomen' but in other cases such as 'ruotsi', the 'i' doesn't change. I did come up with one theory and just wanted to run it past you guys to see if it's right or if there's some other reason. So I was thinking it might change in the word 'suomi' because there is only 1 consonant before the 'i' but in a word like 'ruotsi', there is the 't' and 's', so therefore the 'i' stays. But I don't have such a large vocabulary that I can't think of many other examples to test the theory, so what do you guys think? Can you think of any examples which follow the same pattern?
I asked my äidinkieli teacher at school in Finland (I was an exchange student) but she couldn't explain it to me.

[Upphew]

http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suo ... varen.html

[-Kielo-]

Sorry, I'm probably blind and just missing it, but I couldn't find a rule in there which explains my question? I know about most of those vowel changes/consonant gradation rules because I've been learning Finnish for about 3 or so years, but this one rule is something I have searched for an explanation for but haven't come across. But yeah, sorry if I'm just skimming past and missing it

[ajl]

Excerpt from the link above
"The only group of words that requires memorizing consists of words ending in i, because they can undergo the vowel change i ~ e."

that sounds like the answer, although with a lot of common words I don't think about it at all so it must have changed at some point for me.

[-Kielo-]

Excerpt from the link above
"The only group of words that requires memorizing consists of words ending in i, because they can undergo the vowel change i ~ e."

that sounds like the answer, although with a lot of common words I don't think about it at all so it must have changed at some point for me.

But my question is whether the double consonant before the 'i' determines whether the 'i' will become 'e' or not... Both 'suomi' and 'ruotsi' end in 'i' but the outcome is different. So I was just trying to find out if there is a specific rule that causes this different outcome, or whether it is just random.

[wunderbier]

I've always had it explained to me that 'i' changes during declination depending if the word is 'old' or 'new'. Compare järvi and merkki, which inflect in the singular genitive as järven and merkin. Karlsson, in Finnish: an essential grammar (2. ed) explains

When Finnish borrows nouns from other languages, most of the new nouns are adjusted primarily by adding a final -i if the original noun ends in a consonant, and then inflecting the borrowed noun like a tunti nominal, e.g. pubi 'pub' and hitti 'hit'.

[ajl]

according to the earlier link, the rule is to memorize what happens to words ending in i...
I used to study nom./gen./part. as a group to learn a word, might be useful for some. It
followed me from screwing up rei in latin one year (hadn't learned gen. of res, it was very
embarrassing).

[Rob A.]

I've always had it explained to me that 'i' changes during declination depending if the word is 'old' or 'new'. Compare järvi and merkki, which inflect in the singular genitive as järven and merkin. Karlsson, in Finnish: an essential grammar (2. ed) explains

When Finnish borrows nouns from other languages, most of the new nouns are adjusted primarily by adding a final -i if the original noun ends in a consonant, and then inflecting the borrowed noun like a tunti nominal, e.g. pubi 'pub' and hitti 'hit'.

This is how I learned it... There isn't an absolute pattern, but rather there is a general one, ... "old" words take the Suomen format; new words and "foreign" words take the Ruotsin format. But it can be confusing...äiti becomes äidin...and it is a very old word, but apparently a "foreign" word from the extinct Gothic language...which probably attests more to modern Finn's genetic origins, rather than to it being a "borrowed" word....but who knows for sure? ...

The best advice is to learn this stuff gradually as parts of sentences or phrases... à la AldenG. In the short run I wouldn't worry too much about mistakes...they will gradually become fewer and fewer.... Nevertheless I've put it on my "to-do" list to check to see if there is a pattern that emerges with -tsi words...just curious that's all...

[muhaha]

I think the rule is that "e" changes into "i" when it is at the end of the word. This rule is not productive anymore (it doesn't apply to words, where e-endedness is later development).

[Rob A.]

I think the rule is that "e" changes into "i" when it is at the end of the word. This rule is not productive anymore (it doesn't apply to words, where e-endedness is later development).

This sounds pretty good ...and succinct. Though I'm not sure if you can go quite as far as to say the rule is "not productive anymore"... The general rule seems to be that word-final "e" raises to "i", however words that remain with a final "e" seem to be following another phenomenon....the implication being that there is a "ghost consonant". Page 119 of this link discusses this. But the "general rule", with exceptions as discussed above, is that Finnish words don't end in "e"...the "e" must "raise" to an "i".

And to the OP: Take a look at the link....but don't take it seriously.... ...if you can understand all of what is in here....and I can't... ...then, you will be able to at least "argue" about what the rules are, or should be, just as the Finnish grammarians do...

Here's another "anomaly" to drive yourself crazy with:

kaiket....kaikkeni="my alls"
kaikki....kaikkeni="my all"
vedet....vetensä="his waters"
vesi....vetensä="his water"

This is all grammatically correct....and "by the rules"....obviously context becomes necessary for clarity....

The best advise is, as AldenG says, to learn the language in "chunks", knowing what works in given situations....SIMPLE grammatical rules can be learned, as well....then once enough "chunks" are understood, you can look for patterns, so that you...just like a native speaker, will be able to "predict" how a new word would decline or conjugate.... And "forget" English.....English "works" on the basis of whole words...with some exceptions....Finnish "works" on the basis of word stems...

[vincebel]

I think all the nature-words turn into -e:
mäki, järvi, vesi, meri, kuusi, susi, etc...

same for the numbers:
yksi, kuusi, viisi, ...

the borrowed words keep the -i
taksi, merkki,

as for the rest you have to study them cos there are many exceptions

[Rob A.]

I think all the nature-words turn into -e:
mäki, järvi, vesi, meri, kuusi, susi, etc...

same for the numbers:
yksi, kuusi, viisi, ...

the borrowed words keep the -i
taksi, merkki,

as for the rest you have to study them cos there are many exceptions

Well...I think a language beginner will drive themselves crazy with this stuff if they look for too many "rules"....better to learn the language in "chunks".....see what works and what doesn't... Then later...much later,.... look for the patterns...

Check out the genitive stems for these words:

nakki, hupi, nuppi, lakki... Sure.... some of them might be "borrowed"....but even native speakers aren't necessairly going to be sure of that...

As well, many of the "nature" words in Finnish may not even have a Finno-Ugric origin....some may have been "borrowed" from a prehistoric Nordic language that was in the area in pre-Finnic times....mäki, niemi, saari...though they have generally been "well-tamed" over the eons and are now throughly Finnicized...

[vincebel]

still those nature words are a good rule: sieni, saari, niemi.

th borrowed words keep the -i: posti, taksi, ...

then for merkki, lakki, lappi, nakki, hupi...I will give a try.
All those examples are subject to consonant gradation and keep the -i ending.most of them are borrowed words though

merkki - merkin
lakki - lakin
hupi - huvin
lappi - lapin
äiti - äidin
tunti - tunnin
minuutti - minuutin
etc...

as for suuri, moni, lapsi, and pieni there is no consonant gradation so it changes to -e

suuri - suuren
moni - monen
lapsi - lapsen
pieni . pienen


Im sure its not a rule but i just gave it a try back n school and it seemed to work in most of the cases

exception: kaikki - kaiken; kolari - kolarin, and many more

So again its surely not a rule but we can discuss about it

[skandagupta]

Talve - talven, saare -saaren, lapse - lapsen, tähte - tähden, lume - lumen, tule - tulen, käte - käden and so forth, these are original finnish nominatives,(and in estonian they still are),so modern possessive case shows the ancient nominative. The possessive hasn`t changed or declined, while nominative has.

Typos.

[sister Yasmeen]

I too wonder this i - e problem.

Just at Thursday teached differenties of them to one but forgot.

Bad me.