News in Finnish: Kuoropoika oksensi flyygeliin

[Upphew]

Thanks....It's actually pretty much the same in English...I think I was forgetting this possible construction.....hänen kuorotovereidensa päälle....where, I think, the hänen is dropped unless the statement would be misleading....

For example, Poika ei halunnut oksentaa Osaman kuorotovereiden päälle...... If the context of the sentence makes it clear you could substitute hänen for Osaman, but you would have to leave the hänen in the sentence, if it referes to something other than Poika..

Now, the next question... Could the -nsa suffix be left out...in written Finnish??

Like Poika ei halunnut oksentaa hänen kuorotovereiden päälle? Too colloquial to my taste, go all the way if you are going that way: Poika ei halunnu oksentaa sen kuorokavereiden päälle

[Rob A.]

OK...a little more...

1. - Soitin on poissa käytöstä. On selvityksen alla, kuka maksaa korjauksen ja miten vakuutukset ovat, Oittinen sanoo.
--"The instrument is out of use. (It) is under investigation, who pays repair and how insurance is, says Oittinen. " More typical ENglish would be: "The instrument is not in use. We are investigating who will pay for the repair and whose insurance will cover it., said Oittinen."

2. Hän on myös Cantores Minoresin puheenjohtaja.
--"He is also the chairman of the Cantores Minores."

3. Kesän häitä ja kirkkokonsertteja varten Tuomiokirkon kryptan flyygeli siirretään kirkkosaliin.
--"For summer weddings and church concerts one the TuomioKirkko crypt grand piano is transferred to the church hall." The only interesting point here...at least to me...is that the postposition varten is one of the few that takes the partitive....

4. Soitin on vakuutettu, mutta nyt tutkitaan, menisikö flyygelivahinko esimerkiksi kuoropojan perheen kotivakuutukseen.
---"The instrument is insured., but now we investigate ...??... grand piano mishap, for example, to choirboy's family's home insurance." A few problems here... I get the idea, but how should I translate, menisikö ...???

5. - Tapaus on hyvin harmillinen pojalle ja hänen perheelleen. Sinänsä ei ole harvinaista, että kuorolainen reagoi jännitykseen vatsallaan. Kun on esityksiä, aina ei muista syödä ja juoda niin kuin pitäisi, Oittinen sanoo.
---"The incident is very troubling to the boy and to his family. It, in itself, is not rare, that a choir member reacts with an upset stomach, when performing, not always remembering not to eat or drink, as (he/ she) might like, said Oittinen." I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

[onkko]

O
5. - Tapaus on hyvin harmillinen pojalle ja hänen perheelleen. Sinänsä ei ole harvinaista, että kuorolainen reagoi jännitykseen vatsallaan. Kun on esityksiä, aina ei muista syödä ja juoda niin kuin pitäisi, Oittinen sanoo.
---"The incident is very troubling to the boy and to his family. It, in itself, is not rare, that a choir member reacts with an upset stomach, when performing, not always remembering not to eat or drink, as (he/ she) might like, said Oittinen." I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

Incident is very harmfull to boy and his family, its not actually uncommon that "one-of-choir" reacts for stress with his stomach. When there is performs one not always remember to eat and drink like one should says oittinen.

Not good english but maybe you get idea

[Jukka Aho]

O
5. - Tapaus on hyvin harmillinen pojalle ja hänen perheelleen. Sinänsä ei ole harvinaista, että kuorolainen reagoi jännitykseen vatsallaan. Kun on esityksiä, aina ei muista syödä ja juoda niin kuin pitäisi, Oittinen sanoo.
---"The incident is very troubling to the boy and to his family. It, in itself, is not rare, that a choir member reacts with an upset stomach, when performing, not always remembering not to eat or drink, as (he/ she) might like, said Oittinen." I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

Incident is very harmfull to boy and his family, its not actually uncommon that "one-of-choir" reacts for stress with his stomach. When there is performs one not always remember to eat and drink like one should says oittinen.

Not good english but maybe you get idea :)

Careful there! “Harmful” (=haitallinen) and harmillinen (=“bothersome”, “troublesome”, “regrettable”, “annoying/bothering-in-a-humbling-and-troublesome-bad-luck-way”) are so-called “false friends”.

Harmillinen takaisku = a strike of regrettable bad luck/fate that sets you back in some way that feels troubling

Sinänsä ei ole harvinaista, että kuorolainen reagoi jännitykseen vatsallaan.
It, in itself, is not rare, that a choir member reacts with an upset stomach.

“...reacts to the [situation causing] nervousness/tension/excitement/suspense/stress/anxiety with...”

Kun on esityksiä, aina ei muista syödä ja juoda niin kuin pitäisi, Oittinen sanoo.
when performing, not always remembering not to eat or drink, as (he/ she) might like, said Oittinen."

“When there are performances [due to be performed], one does not always remember to eat and drink as they should, says Oittinen”

pitää jostakin = to be fond of something, to like something
subject in the genitive + pitää + verb in the infinitive = to have to do something

Hänen pitää juosta huomenna. = “He has to run tomorrow.” / “He needs to run tomorrow” / “He must run tomorrow.”

I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

It is a so-called nollapersoonainen (“null-person”) sentence which basically means the subject is never mentioned but the sentence otherwise grammatically behaves as it was referring to a 3rd person. This is typically used in statements of (purported) universal truths which are meant to apply to (all) individuals in general, often including the speaker himself. The most straightforward way to translate these would be using the English generic subject “one” although that might feel too stilted for an “actual” translation.

See here. You might also want to repeat the search in all of the VISK – and not just in the definitions of the terms – by typing “nollapersoona*” (the last character is an asterisk) in the search box. Select kieliopista for the search scope in the drop-down list before hitting the hae button.

[onkko]

[quote="Jukka Aho"
“Harmful” (=haitallinen) and harmillinen (=“bothersome”, “troublesome”, “regrettable”, “annoying/bothering-in-a-humbling-and-troublesome-bad-luck-way”) are so-called “false friends”.
[/quote]

As said my english isnt good, your translation is better

[Rob A.]

“Harmful” (=haitallinen) and harmillinen (=“bothersome”, “troublesome”, “regrettable”, “annoying/bothering-in-a-humbling-and-troublesome-bad-luck-way”) are so-called “false friends”.

As said my english isnt good, your translation is better

Oh, I don't know about that...it's pretty good for a non-native speaker.... I knew, and I think most people would know, from the context that "harmful" would be meant in its broadest sense...

And, thinking about the poor kuoropoika, a lot of us can imagine how we would have felt in his position ...and maybe even had a similar, if not quite such a dramatic incident, in our own childhood. I remember, as a ten-year old ....oksentaneeni minun setäni autossa..... I felt very bad about it at the time, but, at least, he didn't get angry with me...

[Rob A.]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

It is a so-called nollapersoonainen (“null-person”) sentence which basically means the subject is never mentioned but the sentence otherwise grammatically behaves as it was referring to a 3rd person. This is typically used in statements of (purported) universal truths which are meant to apply to (all) individuals in general, often including the speaker himself. The most straightforward way to translate these would be using the English generic subject “one” although that might feel too stilted for an “actual” translation.

....and your knowledge of English never ceases to amaze me... Now how would you know that the generic "one" is actually not favoured in good English??...(a rhetorical question).... I hate using it, but it's kind of a lazy way out, when ....one.... can't be "a*sed" to develop a better construction....

[Rob A.]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the last phrase...?????

It is a so-called nollapersoonainen (“null-person”) sentence which basically means the subject is never mentioned but the sentence otherwise grammatically behaves as it was referring to a 3rd person. This is typically used in statements of (purported) universal truths which are meant to apply to (all) individuals in general, often including the speaker himself. The most straightforward way to translate these would be using the English generic subject “one” although that might feel too stilted for an “actual” translation.

See here. You might also want to repeat the search in all of the VISK – and not just in the definitions of the terms – by typing “nollapersoona*” (the last character is an asterisk) in the search box. Select kieliopista for the search scope in the drop-down list before hitting the hae button.

....and I found a link, which almost certainly,..??.. is talking about this same flyygeli when it was delivered to the Tuomiokirkko in April 2009. The first sentence seems to be an example of a nollapersoonainen sentence:

” 'Flyygeliä ei noin vain osteta suoraan kaupasta', kertoo urkuri Harri Viitanen,...."

...." 'One cannot purchase a grand piano just like that straight from a shop', says organist Harri Viitanen...."
Or: "A grand piano cannot be purchased just like that straight from......."

Excerpt is from a google search using: flyygeli +krypta +tuomiokirkko

...second hit on the search page...the link is called: CITYDIAKONIAA rakkaudesta....

Tuomiokirkon uuden flyygelin
Steinway C:n käyttöönotto-
konsertti su 27.9. kello 19
”Flyygeliä ei noin vain osteta suoraan kaupasta”, kertoo urkuri Harri Viitanen, joka on puhunut flyygelin han- kinnan puolesta vuodesta 2002. Flyygeli oli ennakkoon tilattu ja helmikuussa Viitanen kävi Steinwayn tehtaal- la Hampurissa yhdessä F-musiikin piano-osaston tuotepäällikkö Pertti Kallion kanssa valit- semassa tarjolla olevista vaihtoehdoista parhaan soittimen. ”Valintamme osui kohdalleen. Flyygelin sointi on mahtava”, kehuu Viitanen.
Tuomiokirkon uusi flyygeli tuotiin Tuomiokirkkoon huhtikuussa ja sillä on jo soitet- tu useissa tilaisuuksissa. Virallisesti se otetaan käyttöön sunnuntaina 27.9., jolloin on sen käyttöönottomessu ja -konsertti. Messu on Helsingin hiippakunnan 50-vuotisjuhlamessu ja se alkaa kello 10 ja konsertti kello 19. Konsertissa soittaa pianotaiteilija Risto Lauriala Bachin, Busonin, Sibeliuksen, Schubertin ja Chopinin sävellyksiä. Konsertti kestää noin tun- nin ja siihen on vapaa pääsy.

[Jukka Aho]

and I found a link, which almost certainly,..??.. is talking about this same flyygeli when it was delivered to the Tuomiokirkko in April 2009. The first sentence seems to be an example of a nollapersoonainen sentence:

” 'Flyygeliä ei noin vain osteta suoraan kaupasta', kertoo urkuri Harri Viitanen,...."

...." 'One cannot purchase a grand piano just like that straight from a shop', says organist Harri Viitanen...."
Or: "A grand piano cannot be purchased just like that straight from......."

The verb in that sentence is actually in the passive (4th person) form. (ei osteta – ostetaan) But it is true that nollapersoona and the passive have related usage.

See VISK § 1363: Nollapersoona koskee yksilöä, passiivi useampia.

You may also want to take a look at these:

VISK § 1355: Tämä pitää pestä: nollapersoonan ja passiivin yhteyksiä
VISK § 1313: Mikä passiivi on? Millaisia passiiveja on?

[Rob A.]

The verb in that sentence is actually in the passive (4th person) form. (ei osteta – ostetaan) But it is true that nollapersoona and the passive have related usage.

Darn...I missed that Forgot the rule for making connegatives....
Thanks...