Possibly moving to Finland in a few months

[Sisupoika]

Hi there,

I have been a bit shy to post to these forums for years, so for a while I have been reading, and reading, and reading instead, especially lately... but eventually I thought that I could write here and ask a few questions directly. I have learned a lot of useful information from these pages, yet I am a bit confused about some things and have many open question marks...

I am an Italian based in the UK and with some family ties with Finland. I have been married for 3.5 years to a Finnish lady (from Hollola, Lahti), and we've been thinking for a while to move to Finland so to be closer to family and friends.Unfortunately, despite we have been in the UK for a relatively long time (~7 years myself and ~10 my wife), we have mostly settled OK but we have never managed too well to build some good friendships here... so all of our friends are Finnish as a result, but almost all have moved back to Finland over the years. We have often friends coming to stay here for a few weeks, or months, or the typical gap year, but everybody just comes and goes. This, together with other reasons, makes it more difficult for us to feel "at home" here despite having been here for so long. So we are now thinking to move to Finland in a few months, although we haven't actually committed to a definite decision yet. We need to think it through, especially concerning money etc.

We know that it's not going to be easy to move to Finland (heck, even my wife is wondering about this since she's been in the UK for too long!), but we feel that we would be happier if we were closer to family and friends, plus we have two small kids (2yrs and 1 month) and we feel schools, social care, health care etc are better in Finland, so as a family we would like to give it a try.We can of course get a lot of support from family and friends, but I feel that some foreigners who have made the experience of moving to Finland and starting from scratch, may be able to help more easily with some of our issues, given our particular situation. So expect me to be around here more often and participate more actively in the future

The main question marks are - not surprisingly - around the subject 'work'. While my wife of course speaks perfect Finnish, I only speak a 3-4 year old child's Finnish, so I wouldn't absolutely say I would be confident to work in a Finnish speaking environment from day 1 (to give you an idea, if I watch selkouutiset instead of the regular news, I miss a good 50% ).

As for the skills and background, I am an experienced web developer (10+ years) who's worked in positions such as lead architect and lead of small teams of developers; I currently work as lead web developer for the UK for a company that sells web based software for leveraging virtualisation in Internet based services such as cloud computing and CDN. My role is that of the lead architect and, at the same time, scrum master/project manager for our team in the UK (we also have dev teams in other countries), but I am still very heavily involved in the coding all the time (well, I love it), especially with the testing, and for quality control. I've worked with many technologies and tools over the years, although for the past few years I have settled on Ruby and related tools and methodologies. In short, I think I am fairly well experienced with anything that has to do with the web, from development to scaling through security.

So the first question I'd like to ask is: are there any Ruby developers, or devs with a similar background in this forum, whom I could get in touch with? I haven't found any by just searching or reading the forums.
In particular, I would like to know what I should expect with my background and skills. How does the IT market (in particular for Internet businesses) look like at the moment?
Also, I have been looking at several job sites, but I get depressed each time as they seem to confirm that not many Finnish companies use to advertise their open vacancies on such sites, as they usually do here in the UK. Is this true or is it a wrong assumption? Would you still recommend to look for a job using these sites or would you suggest something else?

Actually, there is the possibility I might be able to take my job with me to Finland, and work remotely. I already work from home a day or two almost each week, so I don't think it would be too difficult in the end. However, I cannot be sure until I talk with my employer because they may prefer having someone here locally due to the kind of responsibilities involved. For this reason, I want to prepare for the worse and, should we move, assume that I may have to look for a job in Finland instead, and cope with our savings in the meantime.
So... how many chances do you think I may have considering the current market and my background and skills (which are anyway my strength as you may have guessed)? Do you think that for the kind of job I do it will be OK if I use the English language at work until I become as fluent and confident in Finnish? Also, what sort of salary do you think I could expect given my skills and experience? I'd like just a rough idea, since I have seen conflicting figures here and there so I am a bit confused about it. Of course, having two kids I will likely take the first job I find at first... (and then look for something better while working, if need be), but for the same reason I need to find out what would be a reasonable salary for my skills and experience and to be able to care for my family as I can now.

To give more context, we are thinking to move likely to Espoo or Vantaa, so to be close enough to Helsinki.

On last thing (well, for now ).... don't take this wrongly but.. please, do not just reply with a "don't come here" kind of posts as I've read many times
We aren't new to Finland, and we know it very well for many aspects, so in a way we don't really need to be told or be reminded that it may be difficult, since we already know
We've just been too long away in the UK and that's why I feel some of you may be able to give advice more easily on some things, than our family and friends in Finland would.

Thanks a lot in advance!

[Kutittaa]

Gosh what a wall of text on my poor 1am eyes...

Moving here isn't as hard as everyone else makes it out to be. If you're EU then you already have your foot in the door.
Work/Job related issues are more or less the 'bread and butter' of what makes or breaks living a happy life here... it's a different story for 'younguns' though compared to 'adults'. Of course adults normally have a degree or two under their belt and they aren't going to sit around all day and leech off everyone else.

There probably isn't much that anyone here could really do in terms of helping you out with finding work.. though I have been surprised more than once. You never know.

If you didn't already know, you could check out http://www.mol.fi (In Finnish) which is a common starting place for those looking at finding employment.

The fact that your field of expertise is probably one of the absolutely most unneeded here in Finland may not help you much. We have scores and scores of Web designers, developers, systems admins, you name it...
I may have missed you writing it somewhere but what does your Wife plan to do/work whilst she is here? Sure she can speak the language but what is her profession?
You may have to rely on her for awhile.

[Sisupoika]

Gosh what a wall of text on my poor 1am eyes...

Oops...sorry!
I just realised after reading your reply that perhaps I should have gone lighter with the first post after years

Moving here isn't as hard as everyone else makes it out to be.

This sounds encouraging

The fact that your field of expertise is probably one of the absolutely most unneeded here in Finland may not help you much. We have scores and scores of Web designers, developers, systems admins, you name it...

This is a bit less encouraging
Is it a so bad time to move with this kind of job? It's amazing how different this can be, although it doesn't really come as a surprise after all. In London (we live in Hertford, ~1 hr from London) with my skills and experience I could change job every week if I wanted, quite literally. It looks like I have to hope that I can take my job with me..
I have also been considering the option of starting something of my own, but nothing I would want to build could bring in money in the short term and would require many months of development etc. So it's very risky and I don't think I will go for that

I may have missed you writing it somewhere but what does your Wife plan to do/work whilst she is here? Sure she can speak the language but what is her profession?
You may have to rely on her for awhile.

I didn't mention it. She's a children's nurse, and has worked for a few years at the Great Ormond St. Hospital in London, one of the most famous in the world for children, so that's likely to look good on her resume. She says she wouldn't mind going back to work if needed (read: if I am in trouble with my own job hunt), actually she says she would be kinda curious to try and work again in Finland after so long to see what's changed etc etc. And she thinks it shouldn't bee to difficult for her to find a job given what she's heard in a number of occasions about nursing in Finland at the moment. But of course I would prefer to solve with my own job because we have two very small children who need her, and with my job I think I could potentially bring in a better salary (well, at least this is is very true in the UK, as with my job I could easily earn 3+ times more than her nurse job, but I don't know what sort of difference there would be in Finland).

[CH]

Web developer + Ruby... sounds good to me. And I would pick Espoo, as most IT jobs are either in Espoo or Helsinki, but Vantaa is also fine.

I'm no web developer, just an ordinary developer, so I don't know the market on that side as well, but although the IT job market is a bit on the slow side compared to recent years, there are a lot of jobs available. The main issue, perhaps, is that employers nowadays don't seem to want to train their employees for a job... they want somebody who is more or less a perfect match, so you get a requirement list that is pretty... utopistic... with a mile long buzz word list. But, there is plenty of jobs for experienced devs. The main site to look for IT jobs (at least in my opinion) is http://www.monster.fi. Have your wife help you navigate that site and set up a CV there. Check out also http://www.mol.fi and http://tyopaikat.oikotie.fi. And make an Linked-In page for yourself, if you haven't already. And I get quite a lot of hits just by googling for "ruby työpaikka", so do that, too. You could also try contacting some head hunter companies, like http://www.barona.fi (lots of others, check the job listings).

If you don't speak Finnish fluently, the employers (in the IT sector) do want good English skills. So I would in your shoes point out that you have been living in England for a long time and therefore speak English really well. (Good Enlish skills is actually a requirement in many companies, no matter if you speak Finnish or not... most of my job interviews have included a part where I have to answer one or two questions in English.)

But yes, if you come to Finland with no or minimal Finnish skills... an experienced IT developer with at least decent English skills is what you want to be... and live in the greater Helsinki area. Good luck!!!

[CH]

The fact that your field of expertise is probably one of the absolutely most unneeded here in Finland may not help you much. We have scores and scores of Web designers, developers, systems admins, you name it...

This is a bit less encouraging

Not true, and he has no idea what he is talking about.

[Sisupoika]

Web developer + Ruby... sounds good to me.

Hi CH,

thanks for your reply
That's what I'd think normally, since Ruby adoption is growing exponentially at the moment. But I am not sure of how well it is doing yet in Finland

And I would pick Espoo, as most IT jobs are either in Espoo or Helsinki, but Vantaa is also fine.

At the moment we are more interested in Espoo since we like it more

I'm no web developer, just an ordinary developer, so I don't know the market on that side as well, but although the IT job market is a bit on the slow side compared to recent years, there are a lot of jobs available.

[..]But, there is plenty of jobs for experienced devs. The main site to look for IT jobs (at least in my opinion) is http://www.monster.fi. Have your wife help you navigate that site and set up a CV there[..]

May I ask what/where else you gather that there are many jobs available from? I just had a look on monster (http://hae.monster.fi/työpaikkoja/?q=ruby&cy=fi) and saw a whopping 6 results
Although I was pleased to say that three of them were in English. Where are you from by the way? Since you work in the IT as well, do you speak Finnish fluently or do you work in an English-friendly environment?
I'll sort out the CV in a "Finnish format" ASAP. Although I don't think I am going to post it to Monster until we are in Finland, since I am pretty sure nobody would take me into consideration for a job if I am still abroad.
Do you find it useful anyway to post your CV to these sites? Do agents/recruiters call candidates when they see good CVs on Monster and alike?

The main issue, perhaps, is that employers nowadays don't seem to want to train their employees for a job...

This, taken out of context sounds great to me, since in my past and current positions I've been the one who brings in new technologies and patterns, and mentors others on a number of things. I usually do training to others, so this would sound good to me...

they want somebody who is more or less a perfect match, so you get a requirement list that is pretty... utopistic... with a mile long buzz word list.

This is actually something that worries me. A couple months ago I tried to apply (mostly out of curiosity since we had just started to talk about moving etc) for a couple jobs and was shocked by the forms you have to fill in online and all the rest. The jobs, as advertised, seemed to be a perfect match for my skills and experience, but then when I went to fill in the forms online, they seemed almost totally unrelated, and asked me the level of knowledge and experience for skills that had nothing to do with the job in first place! So, basically, I had to tick all the low boxes (very little to no experience) which obviously looked very bad. But, LOL, they had *nothing* to do with the job, and if they only interviewed me for the actual job instead of asking to fill in seemingly non related forms, I would easily blow up a big chunk of the competition for the role!
This scares me a lot I have to say, because makes me wonder how easily I could get to the actual interviews this way! I've only seen a few cases of course, but it's something that worries me a lot. It looks like an ancient recruitment process (compared for example to that in the UK), and very, very wrong for the way the ask questions about unrelated (or little related) skills.

Check out also http://www.mol.fi and tyopaikat.oikotie.fi.

Just tried that one too, and got one more result than on Monster, but I think it's more or less the same vacancies.

And make an Linked-In page for yourself, if you haven't already

I do have a Linkedin profile, although I get most contacts from recruiters and alike through my blog (which is on web development related topics)

And I get quite a lot of hits just by googling for "ruby työpaikka", so do that, too.

I hadn't though of that I just tried, and even after filtering language=UK and only pages not older than one month, I get more results than on Monster, so I'll have a look to get an idea.

You could also try contacting some head hunter companies, like http://www.barona.fi (lots of others, check the job listings).

That's new to me, so thanks! They only list one position using the only keyword "Ruby", but I will contact them as you suggest.

If you don't speak Finnish fluently, the employers (in the IT sector) do want good English skills. So I would in your shoes point out that you have been living in England for a long time and therefore speak English really well. (Good Enlish skills is actually a requirement in many companies, no matter if you speak Finnish or not... most of my job interviews have included a part where I have to answer one or two questions in English.)

OK...so this does answer one of the previous questions ("do you speak Finnish?"). Do you speak Finnish in your working environment then? How long have you been in Finland, and how long did it take for you to become fluent in Finnish? Sorry for the many questions in a row

But yes, if you come to Finland with no or minimal Finnish skills... an experienced IT developer with at least decent English skills is what you want to be... and live in the greater Helsinki area. Good luck!!!

[/quote][/quote]

English is not a problem as you can (well, hopefully ) see. After these years in the UK I am starting to forget Italian instead!

[Kutittaa]

The fact that your field of expertise is probably one of the absolutely most unneeded here in Finland may not help you much. We have scores and scores of Web designers, developers, systems admins, you name it...

This is a bit less encouraging

Not true, and he has no idea what he is talking about.

*Cough* who are you to say it isn't true? Every man and his dog in this country is a web designer, graphics designer/etc (as aforementioned). Please do show some up to date statistics that we are in massive need of these types?
Computer literates are a dime a @#$% dozen. No matter what way you try and slide that, it's a fact. I think it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about :/

Finding work is different for everyone. It took me only weeks to find employment here. Though many would call that lucky. Like all places, even though there are 100,000 like-minded people with similar qualifications within 100km of you, you could get a job in no time at all and they could be waiting years. Reality is far less kind, I am only trying to hint to this as it may be the more 'realistic' outcome if you happen to come here. Especially with your chosen field.

EDIT: Maybe I blew it with the choice of word.. 'Unneeded' wasn't the word. 'Overabundance' was the correct word. My mistake, it is 2:30am after all. Shouldn't have finished off the rest of the coffee...

P.S. Currently there seems to be a demand for Sairaanhoitaja and Lahihoitaja. Your wife shouldn't have as much trouble finding work placement compared to you, in a difference sense than that which goes without saying.
As CH stated. Good luck! It sounds that you have your bread buttered on the right side, which is always a huge start over others.

[Pursuivant]

"Ruby" as the magic word and you only get six hits? Sweet jebus on a pogo stick, try finding a job with "Webfocus" in the UK or Finland... Last time I looked "scrum master" was something everyone was after, so if you're good in hosting daily clusterfcuk coding then you should be ok. Test manager is also pretty good to look for. Put your CV on monster, explain your situation. It wont hurt.

[Tiwaz]

May I ask what/where else you gather that there are many jobs available from? I just had a look on monster (http://hae.monster.fi/työpaikkoja/?q=ruby&cy=fi) and saw a whopping 6 results

How many you were expecting? This is Finland, 5 million people. Stop pretending there would EVER be as many open vacancies as you find in London with over 7 million people.

You really should start grasping basic things like scale first and foremost.

Although I was pleased to say that three of them were in English. Where are you from by the way? Since you work in the IT as well, do you speak Finnish fluently or do you work in an English-friendly environment?

Big companies are often at least semi-English, but 90% communication tends to be in Finnish. So if you do not mind being the odd one out, you might do without Finnish.

This is actually something that worries me. A couple months ago I tried to apply (mostly out of curiosity since we had just started to talk about moving etc) for a couple jobs and was shocked by the forms you have to fill in online and all the rest. The jobs, as advertised, seemed to be a perfect match for my skills and experience, but then when I went to fill in the forms online, they seemed almost totally unrelated, and asked me the level of knowledge and experience for skills that had nothing to do with the job in first place! So, basically, I had to tick all the low boxes (very little to no experience) which obviously looked very bad. But, LOL, they had *nothing* to do with the job, and if they only interviewed me for the actual job instead of asking to fill in seemingly non related forms, I would easily blow up a big chunk of the competition for the role!
This scares me a lot I have to say, because makes me wonder how easily I could get to the actual interviews this way! I've only seen a few cases of course, but it's something that worries me a lot. It looks like an ancient recruitment process (compared for example to that in the UK), and very, very wrong for the way the ask questions about unrelated (or little related) skills.

It is called "multipurpose form". They hire people for different positions with different demands using same form. They simply ignore answers to irrelevant skills, or take note of actually having varied skills as bonus, when reading the results.

That form is pretty much ONLY way to get into an interview. Because that way they can weed out from dozens of applicants ones they are genuinely interested in. Which saves money. A lot.

That's new to me, so thanks! They only list one position using the only keyword "Ruby", but I will contact them as you suggest.

Try elanit.fi too. They appear to be concentrated in recruiting and providing IT field people.

[CH]

*Cough* who are you to say it isn't true? Every man and his dog in this country is a web designer, graphics designer/etc (as aforementioned). Please do show some up to date statistics that we are in massive need of these types?
Computer literates are a dime a @#$% dozen. No matter what way you try and slide that, it's a fact. I think it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about :/

IT dev, 15 years of professional experience, mostly in the greater Helsinki area... native. You?

[CH]

It is called "multipurpose form". They hire people for different positions with different demands using same form. They simply ignore answers to irrelevant skills, or take note of actually having varied skills as bonus, when reading the results.

That form is pretty much ONLY way to get into an interview. Because that way they can weed out from dozens of applicants ones they are genuinely interested in. Which saves money. A lot.

Well, it's not the only way. There are lots of companies doing the old "send your CV"... and that means... send your CV and a cover letter. But yes, especially the bigger companies and head hunting/recrutement companies are doing their recruting by forms. I personally hate those forms... hate, hate, hate, hate. They are a major pain in the rear to fill out, as half of the questions are more or less "so... what on earth am I supposed to put here????" and the "put checks for your skill level" has mostly items listed that has nothing to do with the required skills... only slightly exagerating here. But most (all?) of them have also a "upload your CV/cover letter/portfolio here" part, and do use that feature!

More and more companies are now turning to head hunting/recrutement companies to fill their positions. Unlike what mr I-have-no-idea-what-I'm-spewing-here says, there is a big demand for skilled people. And those people that can check all the "requirement" spots in a job advert these days (like I said, they tend to be pretty far out...) are few and far between, and most probably not checking out job adverts! So, they get a lot of "yeah, riiiiight...." kind of applications and none of the "bingo!" ones.... so they rather leave that part of the selection process to the recrutement companies, especially if they are a mid or small size company with no recrutement/hr department of their own. So, Elanit, that Tiwaz mentioned is one big one, Barona is another. EilaKaisla is multipurpose, like Barona, but seems to be getting pretty big in the IT side, too. An up an coming one seems to be Student Works and they have also a "more advanced professinals" company Sharper. There are lots of others, and I've even had a couple of Brittish head hunters contact me for Finnish job positions (I'll see if I still have their contact information).

Oh, and to your previous questions to me... I'm native, sorry, so I cannot really say that much about being non-native and hunting for a job here. But, I've worked and currently work with a lot of non-native people. The language used in a lot of IT companies is English (documentation, internal email, and language used in meetings... although expect the informal discussions to be in Finnish)... like I said, even for natives quite a lot of companies require good English skills.

[Tiwaz]

Well, it's not the only way. There are lots of companies doing the old "send your CV"... and that means... send your CV and a cover letter. But yes, especially the bigger companies and head hunting/recrutement companies are doing their recruting by forms. I personally hate those forms... hate, hate, hate, hate. They are a major pain in the rear to fill out, as half of the questions are more or less "so... what on earth am I supposed to put here????" and the "put checks for your skill level" has mostly items listed that has nothing to do with the required skills... only slightly exagerating here. But most (all?) of them have also a "upload your CV/cover letter/portfolio here" part, and do use that feature!

I actually recommend filling those forms. Thoroughly.
Because when I looked for a job, one thing I noticed is that they had printouts of the forms in hand when performing interviews.
And job I got, I accidentally forgot to add my CV into that application...

So, forgetting CV at least in my case did not hurt. Not filling out those forms... I'll be that would be worse.

[CH]

I actually recommend filling those forms. Thoroughly.

Yes, yes!!! Definitely fill in the forms! They are just a major pain in the rear (I really wish they would customize them at least a bit for each job application), but do fill in them!!!

[Pursuivant]

Oh I'll fill in a dozen forms as long as I don't need to go sit in an psychic evaluation test with some "recruitment consultants" - I want to go Rosarch on them...

[Kutittaa]

*Cough* who are you to say it isn't true? Every man and his dog in this country is a web designer, graphics designer/etc (as aforementioned). Please do show some up to date statistics that we are in massive need of these types?
Computer literates are a dime a @#$% dozen. No matter what way you try and slide that, it's a fact. I think it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about :/

IT dev, 15 years of professional experience, mostly in the greater Helsinki area... native. You?

I'm happy for you. Really I am, but you don't need to be a native with 15 years of professional experience to crack the statement that we have a plethora of computer literates.