Moving back to Finland after 14 years

[J0J0]

Well, we have almost, 95% decided that that is what we are doing. Maybe.

My husband (english) is all for it, the force behind all this, me not so much. Yes, we have talked about it for years how nice it would be to move there and teach our children (13, 11, 4, 2.5 years) Finnish culture and language. And last year we even said we now have a 3-year plan; that we will move to Finland in the next 3 years. Well, we were talking about it and saying how we should do it next summer (2013), did lots of calculations and talked how to go about it. Until we realised major flaw in our plan ... I had miscalculated where the older boys would be in regards their education (oldest would start year8, no.2 year6 in 2013). and now my husband is saying we should just grab the bull by the horns and do it this summer (IN 3 MONTHS!!!) ...

I'm very apprehensive about it all, but my main concern is my oldest son, who has learning difficulties and his finnish is non-existent. I'm thinking even pushing that he could repeat a year (start year lower than suppose to). Or could he even stay in the immersion program that I've read on the forum about, for a year? Has anyone any experience about older non-finnish speaking children coming to Finland and going to yla-aste?

I do want to send my no2 into Finnish school (2 days ago I was adament to put him to The English school in Helsinki, but reading posts about schools here, I've decided to chuck him in the deep end). He hears Finnish everyday at home (I don't speak enough to him, bad habit that I regret) but I speak to my youger ones nothing but Finnish, and he does understand it all. But as long as he doesn't have to use it, he won't (unless he really wants something, then he will and can find the words to make himself understood)

We haven't excluded bilingual schools out yet, but what I have understood is that if children go to monolingual class, they will learn finnish to better standard (which is what I'm after) whereas in bilingual class, finnish is to a lesser degree. I know their english will be good enough, they have done 8 & 6 years at school already respectively, and compared to the british standard they will be just as good in grammar than any british kid (most likely better ...) after PK.

So again, any personal experience and perspective would be much appreciated.

Johanna

[AldenG]

Moving at that age it is likely your eldest will be at a disadvantage in both languages when it comes to writing papers at university.

Others who have done this with kids (for I have not) may disagree, but I've heard this from several sources who actually experienced it.

One guy actually got a paper back with the written comment, "This is the German of a 12-year old!" (in German).

And sure enough, the family had moved from Germany to the US when the guy was an adolescent and then he chose to attend university back in Germany.

Whether that matters depends on what kind of future you see him pursuing. There are many careers where being more-or-less fluently multilingual is more valuable than being able to write or speak at academic or publication level in at least one of them. But people can be left feeling subtly voiceless, or maybe not so subtly.

[Kutittaa]

Imho you need to be able to speak bloody Finnish to go to a Finnish school. Enough said. So your kid(s) aren't going to be able to do anything there.

International schools like where I taught at are a completely different kettle of fish. Staff teach in English and speak causally in whatever-fæcking-language they like. Fin/Eng/Swe etc. However 99% of extra curricular activities will be in Finnish only so some level of Finnish is definitely required or at least really recommended. For example, school trips to learn about dentistry stuff, swimming lessons and carnivals etc.

Also in my humble opinion the type of English that staff taught and used to communicate (at least where I was working) was absolutely pathetic. Finns themselves aren't very good at judging their own level of English (sorry guys).

So the moral of this story is that your kids need Finnish. Especially because they are already too old.

It all comes down to. Even though your kids may not want to live in Finland forever and they may not 'need' to learn Finnish. They will if you want to live in Finland comfortably. So your will have to 'put in' a lot to front that requirement.

Then again you can't even spell 'adamant', you put an 'e' in it so I think everything considered, you're up !"#¤% creek no matter what your plans are. This sort of thing is exactly what I had to put up with and constantly correct when I was working.

[Pursuivant]

Penelope should pop up her head (try PM'ing her) - she had a similar situation when she moved in. The thumb rule is the younger the kids are the faster they learn. You're spot on the eldest, 13 is about there and there - cold turkey, new kid in school (you remember your yla-aste?) and puberty hitting ain't going to be easy with learning difficulties or without. Now as you see from the above, the international schools hire just anybody off the street, whereas the Finnish schools generally have some standards requiring pedagogic studies. So the teachers are professional, also the difference to 14 years ago... feh, if you'd left in the 1980's you'd be in for a surprise. The schools these days are accustomed to kids who can't speak any language the teachers know and can't even read or write in their own language popping up. Theres success stories like the 16-year of Afghan girl banned from school who wrote the matriculation after 4 years in Finland so it can be done. However you must realise that if you live in a very "enriched" area, the resources might be quite stretched. The "international" schools then again have a bit of an elitist flair unless they are expat-moneymilking factories, neither really having the good of the kids future in Finland in mind. The good thing about further education these days is that you don't have so strict divisions any more and not having a masters degree in mite warts doesn't automatically mean you end up as assanvessankassa - even though one needs to have a degree for parket cosmetology for that.

One thing about "keeping English" is that you need to work on that. Its very easy for the kids to sit and get bored in class when everyone else is "stupid", so when things like grammar are taught they can fly by the seat of their pants and then end up losing to the girls who rote the grammar by heart. I think theres quite a few parents with the same dilemma, so maybe try find parents and someplace like . could help gather up a "study group" - maybe there even exists something like that - there are playgroups. Their accent might also go quirky, if your other half is a ponce worried of that might then need to hire Higgins. As you know Finns learn their accents from the TV and from teachers having a Benidorm-fake-rp or a Yankee-doodle depending where they studied. Veri tankeros. And then "native" teachers can be anywhere across from the globe nevermind the other kids.

In any case, don't worry too much, good worrying will go to waste.

Oh, just remembered, theres these summer camps for "expat Finns" for the kids to "learn Finnish" etc. maybe it would be an idea before the plunge into the deep end?

[rinso]

Imho you need to be able to speak bloody Finnish to go to a Finnish school. Enough said. So your kid(s) aren't going to be able to do anything there.

My children were in the same situation when they came (same age category, exposed to Finnish at home, but not speaking it). They managed perfectly well in a Finnish school and their language skills are undistinguishable from their Finnish friends. Actually they do better since they don't hesitate to speak a foreign language if needed. (even Swedish )
The oldest might struggle for some time, but the youngest two will do fine.

[J0J0]

W0W. nuf said.

Some good, HELPFUL replies. Then there was 'kutittaa'. First lause (can't be bothered to check my grammar, so just to make things easier for kutittaa, will write them in finnish so he/she won't get too annoyed) and already swearing few words in, and that tells me the intelligence of the writer. Like I started, nuf said.

Since writing here, I spoke a lovely (and HELPFUL) gentleman in 'opetusvirasto' special education dep. and am loads wiser now. My oldest would go to a intergration program to learn Finnish (up to 12 months he advised it could take) and after that, he could start year7 ... english schools are a no-no as they have hardly any finnish studies (3 hours a week instead of 6-7 of finnish schools) and that defeats the object. No.2 I would just chuck in the deep end to a finnish school (unless we would be able to get a place for him in english class). And not so worried about no3 or 4 as they understand and try to speak in finnish to me already. And hey, my brother-in-law who has lived in Finland for 10 years speaks finnish (in his thirties) and has worked/studied in finnish. So if he can, why couldn't my children ... eventually if not sooner.

Uni isn't our aim for my eldest, for him to get a job qualification is what we want for him. Sooner or later, don't mind when. I feel so much better after speaking to the man in 'opetusvirasto'. And the english schools in helsinki/espoo. The heads were really helpful in both schools giving info and their views on our situations and best possible options for us to think about. So the next step is to speak to few schools that has english classes alongside the finnish ones and see what the ethos is in their school and is it suitable for our family.

And I'm only writing all this to help if there are any families in the future in the same situation as me ... all the help that I got by reading the posts and any extra info can only be good...

so thanks. Even to kutittaa.

[Kutittaa]

/facepalm

[jahasjahas]

/facepalm

Yes, how ungrateful of her. You were so helpful in correcting her spelling.

Then again you can't even spell 'casually', so I think everything considered, you're up !"#¤% creek no matter what you're posting. This sort of thing is exactly what we have to put up with when reading your messages.

[Kutittaa]

/facepalm

Yes, how ungrateful of her. You were so helpful in correcting her spelling.

Then again you can't even spell 'casually', so I think everything considered, you're up !"#¤% creek no matter what you're posting. This sort of thing is exactly what we have to put up with when reading your messages.

There is a difference between a typo you twit, and a lack of education in general. But hey, if you're stupid, it's sort of hard for someone to convince you of it, isn't it?

[Pursuivant]

Well you don't have a pedagogics master, and claim to be a "teacher" - yes I know I watched "Little House on the Prairie", you can not teach kids just being able to read.

[AldenG]

The right education helps you be a better teacher (and the wrong education can make you a worse one) but it's an inborn talent and the difference between two teachers' natural gifts and insight is much greater than any educational disparity between them. It's about a certain kind of empathy that reveals to you how another person is perceiving a thing and where the next natural step for them lies. It's also about finding and connecting with the students' innate enthusiasm.

Brash opinions and good teaching rarely take up residence in the same space.