Marriage and residence permit

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Wed May 23, 2012 1:42 am

Hello everyone, I hope some of you might help me with some questions I have.
I am a Mexican citizen, I've been in a relationship with a Finnish citizen for a while (we met when we were studying abroad) and we plan on getting married next year's January. The only reason why we haven't done it before is because we were both waiting until we both got our University degrees.
As I am probably going to need to have a bunch of documents translated in order to get married in Finland, I was wondering what were the documents I need to get translated, I have looked online for a while and I don't seem to find it anywhere. Also, after getting married I am going to return to my country because apparently I need to apply for the Residence Permit at Finland's Embassy in Mexico City. However, I have also read in several websites that you are able to apply for the permit by submiting the application at a Finnish Police Station, so I am not sure if I should apply inmediately after getting married in January or should I spend tons of money going back and forth. But hey, if that's the case, it's still worth doing for someone you love.

I hope I can get your help.
Paljon kiitoksia!

**Sponsor:**

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed May 23, 2012 7:46 am

As for the documents, I'd suggest you get your spouse-to-be to ask that from the local magistrate office in Finland. With email you should have no problem sending copies here to make sure, "that this one, with these stamps, in original, is that what you want?" Do it in good time, but not in too good time (the papers have limited validity time (couple of months I think - ask that too from the magistrate office.))

You can either apply via the embassy in Mexico or the local Police station here. We have had numerous threads about the topic; The question basically boils to this: Do you rather wait in Mexico or here, noting that while you're waiting here you can't be legally employed, can't do degree studies (you weren't perhaps interested, but anyway) and are outside the national health insurance/social security system. The waiting time may turn out to be long.

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Wed May 23, 2012 7:51 am

Thank you very much for your reply, I will discuss everything with my fiance.
Cheers!

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Wed May 23, 2012 12:18 pm

Its also, do you get married in Mexico or Finland, and what kind of papers are required in each. Mexico... OK, so you don't need a visa to come to Finland, and yes, you can wait for the application being processed, but there is can and want (as you will be "tourist" in limbo waiting for the decison maybe 6 months...) the Finnish Embassy in Mexico doesn't elaborate much in Spanish, but the Finnish pages explains eg. what papers you need to marry in Mexico... don't know if the Mexican embassy in Finland does anything except coctail parties, but yes, the best idea is to ask what papers exactly teh magistrate wants and what stamps they want (apostille) and if they want them to go through the Finnish embassy in Mexico...

Remember - todos los papeles!

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Wed May 23, 2012 9:15 pm

Paljon kiitoksia for your response! I will make sure to get todos los papeles together

Well, we are getting married in Finland, for sure. And I personally believe they make you go through more stuff here than in Finland.
I have thought about the whole "waiting in Finland" thing, funnily enough I referred to it as "limbo" as well, when I was discussing it with my fiance. It sounds kind of harsh, especially if you are not used not doing anything (personally staying home to be a pretty housewife is not one of my life goals). And is a bit worrying in case it takes too long and in case they deny it, because I've heard that being married is not really enough (if you haven't lived together for two years). In our case, of course we haven't lived together for that long (we did for 5 months when we were studying abroad and we have spent a few months on holiday in each other's country, which doesn't really count) because we were both studying university degrees. Should I be worried about getting a negative response for that reason? It seems like the diplomatic situation between Mexico and Finland is quite alright, wouldn't that make Mexico a "low risk" country?

Cheers! I really appreciate your help.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed May 23, 2012 11:24 pm

Being married is good enough for permit, as long as they think you want the permit in order to live as a family, and are not just pretending to be a family in order to get a permit. It seem to me you'd have a perfectly OK enough story, so I'm pretty sure question regarding your permit is not 'if' but 'when'.

There have been widely different (recent) stories regarding waiting times, so I don't know what you should expect. The city social services may help as last resort if you're completely broke, but otherwise if you don't have money of your own you're supposed to be living off your fiancée. Finding language courses to attend and doing sightseeing are couple of fairly obvious things that you can do when alone - if things go well, maybe later you will have it hard to find time for either one of them... Try to get travel (health) insurance policy with long duration (check the conditions regarding emigration) before you leave. It's probably cheaper than anything you can find afterwards if you need to continue waiting here.

If you plan to do some trips to other countries in Europe (Schengen zone) after arrival, plan them to take place within the first three months while you're still within your normal visa exempt period. (Policies at police station may vary, but at least in Helsinki they used to only want to see and copy it when you submitted your residence permit application.

January can be cold and dark if you haven't been here in winter. On the positive side, it probably won't get any worse before following November...

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:03 am

I would definitely take language courses (I am finishing my Translation degree pretty soon and to be able to translate from or to Finnish/Swedish would be great, I am fast learner), and because of my major I can work online with a company from back home, I highly doubt that's not allowed while waiting for the RP response, because my employer wouldn't be Finnish.
I think our situation is pretty fair, I don't really find a reason why it would be denied but of course, you never know.
Thank you again for your helpful reply, you have cleared up a lot of doubts I've been having for a while.
(I was there last January; I think I had a harder time in Canada than in Finland, weather wise).
Cheers!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:23 am

rafaella wrote:I highly doubt that's not allowed while waiting for the RP response, because my employer wouldn't be Finnish.

Sounds like there is a question there that you could ask if you really want to make some official baffled and possibly unhappy. I would do the work and pay the taxes that would be due if you were still living at Mexico at the time.

(By the way I do not know what does our laws say of income earned abroad during early part of the year if you live (officially, with a permit) later the last six months (or more) of the year here)

jahasjahas · Post by **jahasjahas** » Thu May 24, 2012 1:06 am

rafaella wrote:I would definitely take language courses (I am finishing my Translation degree pretty soon and to be able to translate from or to Finnish/Swedish would be great, I am fast learner)

As a fellow translation student, I welcome you to the country. Learning enough Finnish to use it as a working language will take quite some time, but of course studying the language makes sense. And I'm not saying this just because I'm afraid that you're stealing my job

Elan · Post by **Elan** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Hola Rafaella!

I'm in a similar situation with you. My Mexican boyfriend and I are planning to get married this summer in Finland.
It's been a painstaking process with all the paperwork required for the marriage! But we finally managed to get all the things together and now it's time to focus on the wedding part

This is what is required for a Mexican who's coming to Finland with the intention of marrying a Finn.

1. A certificate of no marriage from your local registro civil
2. Apostille certificate of the certificate of no marriage
4. Official English translation of the certificate by an authorized translator (NB! Apostille does not need to be translated, it can be in Spanish)
5. In Mexico, you have to go to a notario publico who verifies the signature of the authorized translator
6. Only after the notario's verification, the official translation can be apostilled at the registro civil.

It's really a lot of work and a waste of money, doing the apostilles twice and finding a notario who knows the translator... brrr...
But luckily it's just once in a life experience

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage!

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:57 pm

Sounds like there is a question there that you could ask if you really want to make some official baffled and possibly unhappy.

Au contraire! If that causes any trouble, I should go for the non ideal thing and live off my future husband's paycheck until I'm able to get a job there.

Thank you very much jahasjahas!

It's really a lot of work and a waste of money, doing the apostilles twice and finding a notario who knows the translator... brrr...

Paljon kiitoksia Elan! The info you shared has been very very helpful! And if the Apostille can be in Spanish, that is just wonderful! It reduces the costs (and I'm quite aware of how expensive legal translations can be, not really complaining, that is my job as well

-but is very ridiculous how much you can charge for an Apostille when they are very simple to translate).
Congratulations on your upcoming marriage as well and I wish you and your future esposo the best!

jahasjahas · Post by **jahasjahas** » Sat May 26, 2012 4:16 pm

rafaella wrote:And if the Apostille can be in Spanish, that is just wonderful!

Apostilles are never translated. The point of an apostille is that it follows the standard (The Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement for Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents of 1961) exactly, so a reader knows what each part means without needing to know the language.

Of course, as a translator you're going to have all these clients that insist that they must have everything translated, even the apostille...

(Couldn't you skip the second apostille by having the "certificate of no marriage" translated in Finland? Although maybe it's simpler and cheaper to get it translated in Mexico. Also: I haven't done this, so don't listen to me.)

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Sun May 27, 2012 3:29 am

Apostilles are never translated.

That may be the case in Finland, but not here.
The apostille is considered to be part of the document and therefore you have to translate it as well (except of course of "Apostille (Convention de La Haye du 5 octobre 1941)". That is how it works here, wouldn't know that that wasn't the case in Finland or perhaps in Europe.
On the other hand, I am super happy that I don't have to get it translated in order to use it in Finland.

And yes, for sure it is simpler to translate the Certificate of No Marriage in Mexico.
Thank you for your comment, I have found it quite interesting. Now I have an urge to comment that with my Legal Translation teachers.
Cheers!

jahasjahas · Post by **jahasjahas** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:51 am

rafaella wrote:That may be the case in Finland, but not here.
The apostille is considered to be part of the document and therefore you have to translate it as well (except of course of "Apostille (Convention de La Haye du 5 octobre 1941)". That is how it works here, wouldn't know that that wasn't the case in Finland or perhaps in Europe.

Wow, that sounds like a strange misinterpretation by someone.

The convention says

The certificate referred to in the first paragraph of Article 3 shall be placed on the document itself or on an "allonge"; it shall be in the form of the model annexed to the present Convention.

It may, however, be drawn up in the official language of the authority which issues it. The standard terms appearing therein may be in a second language also. The title "Apostille (Convention de La Haye du 5 octobre 1961)" shall be in the French language.

and quoting from the HCCH's apostille FAQ:

Apostilles issued in accordance with the requirements of the Convention must be recognised in the country where they are to be used.

Apostilles may only be rejected if and when:
their origin cannot be verified (i.e. if and when the particulars on the Apostille do not correspond with those in the register kept by the Competent Authority that allegedly issued the Apostille); or

their formal elements differ radically from the Model Certificate annexed to the Convention.
While an Apostille should conform as closely as possible to the Model Certificate annexed to the Convention, in practice Apostilles issued by different Competent Authorities vary in design, size and colour as well as in any additional elements that may be included on the Certificate. Such variations are not a basis for refusal of an Apostille.

Of course, theoretically, different countries could implement some details differently, but I can't see how they could refuse to recognise a non-translated apostille.

Now I have an urge to comment that with my Legal Translation teachers.

I'm interested in hearing what they have to say

I just finished my authorised translation course in the university and "Apostilles are never translated" was one of the things our teacher made sure we remember. (Though she also did point out that even some officials don't understand how apostilles work, so we shouldn't be surprised by it.)

Good luck with your battle against the bureaucrats!

rafaella · Post by **rafaella** » Mon May 28, 2012 4:36 am

In my four years studying Translation I've had two courses in which I've had to translate apostilles. Both of those teachers are certified translators and they stated that it's a pretty common thing to do around here.
Some government institutions here require the apostille to be translated. They don't in Finland and that's great. I see your point, translating apostilles comes up as a bit silly because they state the same in every language. But if they demand a translation, what can you do?
I'll let you know what my teachers say about it and perhaps it could be clearer why we translate apostilles. Is really not something I made up, I don't see the point in that.
And that's not really my battle, that's how I was taught and how things work on this side of the world

Cheerio!

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