Finland= my dream!

[tizlit]

Tiwaz - have you worked and lived in Greece as you seem to know how things work there ??? In Finland the offices takes ages and ages to serve the public, slow motion is the word, lunch break, coffee break etc etc. whereas southern Europeans eat while working, no such breaks generally. IF you are luck one to even have a job. Some do not pay even insurance for you. Overtime is common, with no extra pay.

All unemployed southern Europeans dream of the Paradise (spelled Finland), but get disappointed after arriving. Mostly they live on benefits in the beginning and that is not life. How will you manage in offices, without speaking the language - the Finns DO speak English but avoid using it as much as possible.

[Sami-Is-Boss]

Do they?? I was under the impression most people move to Finland for women, not jobs...

[gfunho]

Do they?? I was under the impression most people move to Finland for women, not jobs...

I know far more southern european people in here for a job than for a woman/man. Of course it might just be my personal experience.


(And by the way, in many cases, if there is a mixed couple (southern european + finn) they both end up living in south europe)

[Tiwaz]

I have been working and studying in south Europe and in Finland. Studying engineering in Finland is about twice as easy as doing it in Southern Europe (Spain, Italy) and I know because I teach the finnish students and I know how they perform. You just have to see the average time that they take into finishing a degree or the dropping statistics. Finnish students are not specially hard workers.

Of course you teach them. Hint, despite this Finnish engineers are highly sought after. Why would that be?
Oh yes, they work efficiently, know how to use their brains and do not require high micromanagement!
I get Tekniikka & Talous and 3T magazines, a while ago there was article about Finnish engineers who were working in ME area.
Finns were there more or less considered miracle makers who get stuff to work!

Also, since you are sure that in south europe the people goes to work to drink coffee, I invite you to try your luck and work in south Europe for half a year so you tell me if the people actually does work or just goes there to socializing. Assuming that the people of other countries are in pain because of laziness without any proof is just ignorance.

No productivity, no education, no nothing. It is laziness. They had same if better starting point compared to Finland. And they managed to slouch their way into hell.

As I was trying to explain before, the productivity problems in south europe are not a matter of lack of hard working but a deficient redistribution of the money. We have a bunch of people very rich, that have the power and control the productive fabric of the country. And they are not interested in innovating or re-investing their earnings. They just want to live fine, even if a big percentage of the country has to work 12 hours a day for 800€.

Simple answer. If greeks etc were competitive workers, there would be FOREIGN INVESTORS getting there to cash in at the hard working and skilled workers at cheap prices.
Except nobody really wants to invest there... Because workers are crap and country is a corrupt, lazy cesspit.

Reality is that money goes where it makes more money. If greek workers were that good, they would be used. They aren't.

[gfunho]

I get Tekniikka & Talous and 3T magazines, a while ago there was article about Finnish engineers who were working in ME area.
Finns were there more or less considered miracle makers who get stuff to work!

So, I have lived and worked in finland in the Engineering field for 8 years. I teach the finnish engineering students at a universitary level (that is partly my job), I have lived and worked in southern Europe and studied engineering there.

But all my experience and points of view are worth nothing because you get home Tekniikka & Talous (a finnish magazine written in finnish) that says that finns are consider miracle workers outside of Finland compared to southern European workers.

If Tekniikka & Talous said that, then it might be true. Finnish engineers are extremely hard workers and no-one can compare to them in the rest of the world.

I just hope that "Jalkapallo & Urheilu" magazine does not decide to make an article about how finnish football players are considered miracles in their european team

[cors187]

Do they?? I was under the impression most people move to Finland for women, not jobs...

I get that all the time from people thinking i moved here for a woman.

[Tiwaz]

So, I have lived and worked in finland in the Engineering field for 8 years. I teach the finnish engineering students at a universitary level (that is partly my job), I have lived and worked in southern Europe and studied engineering there.

But all my experience and points of view are worth nothing because you get home Tekniikka & Talous (a finnish magazine written in finnish) that says that finns are consider miracle workers outside of Finland compared to southern European workers.

Welcome to internets, everyone is warhero, supergenius and millionaire here. Thus I take your claim of personal excellence with huge grain of salt.

Do explain logically...
If SE workers are such hard working, knowledgeable and skilled folk...
WHY NOBODY IS STARTING FACTORIES IN THEIR COUNTRIES?

Your logic that only evil local landlords keep these hard working, skilled people down does not hold water. International money would rush to place where there is hard working, skilled and cheap labour. Something in your equation fails.

And considering what kind of cesspools those countries are, the most likely candidate is this "hard working and skilled"-worker. Who in reality twiddles thumbs and does pisspoor little.

[Sami-Is-Boss]

Tiwaz, you've been so comprehensively merked I don't know why you continue to post. Foreign investment is decided on many things, and Greece's corruption and pathetic tax system is one major reason why they might be put off. It's not just decided on whether workers are 'hard-working', and anyway, we've already concluded that Greeks aren't 'twiddling thumbs and doing pisspoor little (sic)'. Have a look at this table. See where Greece is in relation to Finland? (Don't worry Adrian, I accept this is nothing to do with productivity )

The way you continue to use words like 'cesspools', I can't take your arguments seriously!

Anyway, don't you see how silly it is to blindly believe your Finland-produced magazines when they go on about how great Finnish workers are?

PS. This is quite an interesting article about competitiveness in Greece: http://www.cnbc.com/id/44944435

[gfunho]

Welcome to internets, everyone is warhero, supergenius and millionaire here. Thus I take your claim of personal excellence with huge grain of salt.

I never claimed to be excellent. Quite the contrary!

I just say that being an average engineer in my country I managed to come to finland, find a job, work as a universitary teacher for finnish engineers and that I don't see the finnish engineering excellence anywhere. I never said the finns are bad engineers either. I just claim that there is not more "hard working" in finland that in southern europe, and that the efficiency has to do with company practices and not with levels of laziness.

One finn with a tractor can do in 4 hours with breaks more than 4 foreigners with shovels in 16 hours of nonstop work. Is the finn more efficient in this case? YES. Is he a harder worker? Well, not really. Why don't they give tractors to the others? because it requires an investment, and me, leader of the company, I prefer to buy an Audi today rather than buy a tractor for my workers and have 4 Audis, but tomorrow.

Does foreign money come to south european countries? Well, regulations and barriers of entry to a country are an important fact. But anyway, I would not like to make this post as an economy forum where I we end up explaining business administration. If you think that southern europeans are lazy based on your own misconceptions, so be it. You are welcomed to think whatever you want. That does not make it true.


Cheers.

P.s On the other hand, following your own reasoning, I assume that you also believe that the crisis that happened in Finland during the 90s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_ba ... s_of_1990s) was also because the previous generation of finns (what worked in the 70s and 80s) were a bunch of lazy people.

EDITED BECAUSE APPARENTLY THIS WASN'T MY LAST POST

[Tiwaz]

Tiwaz, you've been so comprehensively merked I don't know why you continue to post. Foreign investment is decided on many things, and Greece's corruption and pathetic tax system is one major reason why they might be put off.

And this is result of evil corruption fairies going there and ruining things, not about lazy ass greeks just not wanting to work but preferring to cheat to get money.
Corruption stems for people being lazy and just cheating instead of doing something.
Like that Greek island which had record number of blind in it!
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2 ... are-cheats

It's not just decided on whether workers are 'hard-working', and anyway, we've already concluded that Greeks aren't 'twiddling thumbs and doing pisspoor little (sic)'. Have a look at this table. See where Greece is in relation to Finland? (Don't worry Adrian, I accept this is nothing to do with productivity )

Apparently you just cannot grasp it...
THAT STATISTIC TRACKS NUMBER OF HOURS PRESENT AT WORKPLACE, NOT ACTUAL WORK DONE!
You can stick your hands under your ass, sit doing absolutely nothing but spit on the floor for 18 hours a day and still that statistic credits you to be "working" for 18 hours.

Anyway, don't you see how silly it is to blindly believe your Finland-produced magazines when they go on about how great Finnish workers are?

Well, considering these are guys who are wanted abroad to do the difficult tasks, why not believe?

Show me where Finns are considered poor engineers. Go ahead.
Rich guys in ME want Finns, because Finns are good! It is really that simple.

PS. This is quite an interesting article about competitiveness in Greece: http://www.cnbc.com/id/44944435[/quote]

[Tiwaz]

I never claimed to be excellent. Quite the contrary!

Well, then you count yourself lucky. And your students unlucky.

I just say that being an average engineer in my country I managed to come to finland, find a job, work as a universitary teacher for finnish engineers and that I don't see the finnish engineering excellence anywhere. I never said the finns are bad engineers either. I just claim that there is not more "hard working" in finland that in southern europe, and that the efficiency has to do with company practices and not with levels of laziness.

And you think that you are top notch teacher? We have bad teachers in Finland too.

As for engineering excellence... Yeah. Finland is just considered high tech country and our engineers are wanted all over the globe.
Our main exports are results of engineering and have created variety of companies out of Finnish engineering skill. KONE, Metso, Aker Arctic (it and it's predecessors having designed and constructed 60% of GLOBAL icebreakers), KoneCranes (2010 15% global marketshare, industrial lifters market leader 17%), Wärtsilä (they power 1/3 and service 2/3 of ships sailing the seas). Hell even Nokia. All built from skill of Finnish engineers. Think about it... 30% of ships sailing the seas run on engines made by country hailing from tiny country in the arse end of Europe.
What does your country have to offer for 5 million inhabitants? Which one is it?

As for hard working, Finns work hard and SMART. We do right things. Again, example from abroad. Finnish engineering student in Hong Kong. He works far less hours than his local companions but achieves same results. Guess why? He uses his brains! Local students do not learn to thing, but memorize. If they run into problem which they have not memorized answer for, they are screwed. Result is that they work inefficiently massive hours trying to memorize everything.

One finn with a tractor can do in 4 hours with breaks more than 4 foreigners with shovels in 16 hours of nonstop work. Is the finn more efficient in this case? YES. Is he a harder worker? Well, not really. Why don't they give tractors to the others? because it requires an investment, and me, leader of the company, I prefer to buy an Audi today rather than buy a tractor for my workers and have 4 Audis, but tomorrow.

And this here, if you apparently SE person, tells exactly why you guys are so bad at everything but being lazy cheats.
Guess what Finnish managers and managers all over world where business succeeds do...
THEY INVEST TO MAKE MORE MONEY!
That is, if they find workers who are worth it. It is not worth giving those 4 guys tractors when in reality they spend half the time to scratch their balls instead of work.
Or if they when working @#$% it up so that one digs a hole while other keeps filling it.

Does foreign money come to south european countries? Well, regulations and barriers of entry to a country are an important fact. But anyway, I would not like to make this post as an economy forum where I we end up explaining business administration. If you think that southern europeans are lazy based on your own misconceptions, so be it. You are welcomed to think whatever you want. That does not make it true.

Lazy or just pisspoor workers, both are the same.
Greece and rest of SE cesspools being right now begging money tells us all we need to know about their workforce.

P.s On the other hand, following your own reasoning, I assume that you also believe that the crisis that happened in Finland during the 90s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_ba ... s_of_1990s) was also because the previous generation of finns (what worked in the 70s and 80s) were a bunch of lazy people.

Different kind of case. Also notice something here... FINLAND DID NOT WALK AROUND DEMANDING MONEY FOR FREE!
Banking sector tanked indeed, but Finnish industry was so competitive and workers hard working that Finland dragged itself up all by itself.

Greeks and rest just settle to sitting on their asses wailing how life is unfair and they want money for free.

If greeks were not so bloody lazy, they would be dragging their country upwards by hard work (like Finns did). Instead... They just keep whining how it is not their fault that their country is corrupt as hell. And demand that their cozy life must be paid by someone else.

[gfunho]

And you think that you are top notch teacher? We have bad teachers in Finland too.

Again! I don't consider myself a top notch teacher, just average. And that is enough to teach engineering in Finland. That is exactly the point. An average Southern european engineer is average when he comes to Finland, so the level of engineering is "not that different"

What does your country have to offer for 5 million inhabitants? Which one is it?

It is not necessarily my country, but it is in south Europe.

http://www.businessinsider.com/state-of ... 011-6?op=1

You can divide the revenues and market/share by eight-fold if you want to be fair in the comparisons against Finland. Quite many engineering companies, isn't it?

As for hard working, Finns work hard and SMART. We do right things. Again, example from abroad. Finnish engineering student in Hong Kong. He works far less hours than his local companions but achieves same results.

Any reference for that? Or do we just have to believe you?

Guess what Finnish managers and managers all over world where business succeeds do...
THEY INVEST TO MAKE MORE MONEY!

Of course they do. And the SE do not. But it is not related to poor workforce. It is related to the fact that investing will reduce their current gains for the promise of future ones.

Different kind of case. Also notice something here... FINLAND DID NOT WALK AROUND DEMANDING MONEY FOR FREE!
Banking sector tanked indeed, but Finnish industry was so competitive and workers hard working that Finland dragged itself up all by itself.

Explain me why it is a different kind of case. Why the european bank crisis is the fault of south european workers and the Finnish banking crisis was not the fault of the Finns.

On the other hand, If the solution taken by finland was different, it was probably because they could devalue their currency and/or default.

[Upphew]

On the other hand, If the solution taken by finland was different, it was probably because they could devalue their currency and/or default.

True, FIM was first devalued, but after that it was floated. Dunno which helped to pull us through the crisis?

Your quarrel with teaching reminded me of the saying: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, consult"

[gfunho]

True, FIM was first devalued, but after that it was floated. Dunno which helped to pull us through the crisis?

I guess both, but devaluing is the easiest way of making cuts in the "salaries" at the same time as with the debt. Once part of the debt is paid, you can revalue the coin.

Your quarrel with teaching reminded me of the saying: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, consult"

[/quote]

Totally agree. Actually I might soon consider consulting

[Adrian42]

What does your country have to offer for 5 million inhabitants? Which one is it?

It is not necessarily my country, but it is in south Europe.

http://www.businessinsider.com/state-of ... 011-6?op=1

You can divide the revenues and market/share by eight-fold if you want to be fair in the comparisons against Finland. Quite many engineering companies, isn't it?

Italy has very competitive economy and the country exports more than it imports - if they ever get the rest sorted out they are in a good shape.

Spain and France are kinda competitive.

The economy of Greece is a complete mess.

Different kind of case. Also notice something here... FINLAND DID NOT WALK AROUND DEMANDING MONEY FOR FREE!
Banking sector tanked indeed, but Finnish industry was so competitive and workers hard working that Finland dragged itself up all by itself.

Explain me why it is a different kind of case. Why the european bank crisis is the fault of south european workers and the Finnish banking crisis was not the fault of the Finns.

Different countries have different problems, that just happen to be uncovered at the same time:

In Greece there is not really a banking crisis, the banking problem there is a side effect of the partial default of the Greek government. The people of Greece always elected politicians who spent more money than Greece had committed to spend. They even faked their numbers. And now they want us to pay for that. Any politician who suggests to sell these a$$holes to the Turks will get my vote - they would definitely deserve it.

Italy also has the problem off having spent more than they were allowed to spend - and not a banking crisis. The economy of Italy is strong enough that with a proper government and the help they are already getting from us they could get out of that.

Spain actually has a banking crisis. The workers in Spain extremely benefited from the whole bubble in the housing sector (the money that is lost now was spent on construction work in Spain). And now they have to pay for it. And I don't see the point why the much poorer people in Estonia should also pay for that.