Moving back to Finland?

[BlakkMaggik]

Hello everyone, I'm new here!
I could use some advice,tips, encouragement, a heads up and just some general insight from you guys.
I'm currently living in the US, and have been for an extended amount of time. I was born in Helsinki, and lived
my first 4 years there, until the family moved to the US. We lived here for about 4 years or so, and returned back
to Finland. We then lived there for maybe 4-5 years, until we returned BACK to the US again. I've been here in the US
for about the last 15 years. Quite frankly I miss the hell out of Finland and very often think about moving back.
I'm a Finnish citizen, 26years old, I need to complete my conscript training as I'm already in trouble with that whole deal.
I know it's something I want to do someday (return to Finland that is), and as happy as the thought of doing so makes me,
it saddens me. I'm not doing anything particularly exciting with my life over here, living in a small town, working, not going to
school. But I do have a life here, I have a place of my own (renting) I own a nice car, and my mother lives near.
I don't have too many friends anymore, but the ones I do have matter a lot to me. Anyways..
My lease is up in a month, and its really getting to me now that I need to get on the ball and get the move back to Finland in
motion - if that's what I want to do. I really just don't know what to do.
I've moved back and forth internationally so many times that it's weird for me to have stayed here for so long as it is. But I
cant help but to wonder what do I really have to look forward to in Finland.
My plans, IF I do move.. first things first, complete my conscript training. And then the next 4 years, attend Metropolia University
of Applied Sciences. I know what curriculum I want to apply for and everything..
With the conscript training, I do have to ask, of those of you who have already done it. What's it like? Is it tough? What do you do? Should I
train for it? I've heard from people that its 'childs play' but I won't bank on that. I'm not too worried about it, but just curious. I played high school football for 3 years, and loved it, so I doubt the service would be anything I couldn't handle.
I speak very fluent american english, as a matter of fact, you wouldn't ever guess that I wasn't born and raised here, I pass off that well
if I do say so myself. I also speak Finnish, I dare say fluently, I speak it quite often with my mother and occasionally here and there, but
my vocabulary is doubt a bit rusty. Let's start with that! Feedback please? Any questions?
Thanks!

[Pursuivant]

Well, to start with - do you have a Green Card or are you an USC? If you haven't been naturalized, do so now. Maybe after you finish the polytechnic you want to find a plum job in the USA, you don't want to close that door. If you're on a green card they boot you out quicker than you can say jack robinson. You don't want to do that, believe me. Also, like happened with one dude who'd never had the benefit of actually living in Finland any, he was deported after jail - so really USA doesn't like their immigrants that much.

Well, I might whack you with a clue-by-four the job situation Finland is beyond suck, and without any vocational education you won't be considered for a job. All the people you meet will stare at you and go "you came from the USA? YOU CRAZY!!!???" OK, so the army is on the list, if you are in shape it shouldn't be too bad. You're just going to be with a bunch of 19-year olds and feel like "the old man".

Question though - you have any relatives or such, a place to stay etc. ? I mean yeah, there are some welfare benefits, but you will not be welcomed with "open arms" if you think so (except maybe into the army). Your savings will vanish fast - so even you have a plan (we have heard worse) you need a bit more substantial ground there.

BTW now the army might actually pay /compensate for your air ticket, so go read www.mil.fi, read the "foreign resident" parts, as you have been a naughty boy contact the appropriate district and ask for a draft note (and arrive there on the date and the time) theres also the pdf handbook which is a good read.

But as I said, sort that USC before you do anything. It will come bite you back in the ass - your kids asking "why do I need a visa to go see grandma".

[BlakkMaggik]

Well, my residential status is highly unfavorable, let me just put it that way. As I did state in my first post, I am a Finnish citizen though, and only that.
On paper, it should be a no brainer for me to move back. It'd be the option in the long run.
I have a lot of issues with the US gov't that I simply don't agree with, immigration being one of the bigger issues, but also for other reason.
Not that any government is perfect, but I do feel that the Finnish gov't simply got it right. Corruption, politics and money seem to be the american way,
but I can't say that Finland is better, simply because when I lived there, politics were of no concern to me. Simply put, I feel that Finland is a much
more honest country to be in.
What's got the job market so down over there? I keep "hearing" that, but it can't be that much worse than the US, can it?
Don't get me wrong, the US is great in its own sense, but it has its flaws as well.

I'm not in shape, but I'm not out of shape.. I have an average build, but I don't really exercise, I'm pretty lazy, but I need to change that..
I was kind of worried I'd be stuck with a bunch of kids in the army. I live in a college town right now so you think I'd be used to it but nope,
I already feel like the old man as it is.
I have lots of relatives theres! My twin sister moved there a couple years ago, several aunts and uncles, cousins and 2 grandparents. My sister has told me I could stay with her, or roomie in a bigger apartment rather, she just moved to Espoo. I wouldn't really want to stay with my extended family there though, as my sister has quite a rough start going that route. I would almost have to rely on welfare benefits until I got on my feet. A majority of my extended
family lives there actually. Here in the US, I have my older sister and nephew, mom, and a few aunts. My sister most likely won't be able to return to the US
for some time. So I don't count on her visiting. I feel that whatever I choose to do, I will have to give up something..
I could 1. Stay in the US, living a lie, never see Finland or my relatives there again, or 2. Leave mom and sister, and everything that I've known for the last 15 years, maybe come back to visit some day, but get to see Finland again. I sincerely do miss Suomi, but I also know that I'll miss the US if I leave.
I really do need to get in contact with the district office, as you said I've been naughty. The embassy forewarned me of the welcome I would receive for not having taken care of that already.
The USC situation is pretty much not an option. It bites me in the ass everyday as it is, but it wasn't ever something I had much control of growing up.
I worry about my future, grand kids (I dont even have any kids yet!) and all because I don't know what to do with this moving situation.
I feel that staying here in the US, I'd be living on borrowed time, on a temporary basis and never get to be at ease, wondering " .. what if instead I had moved back to Finland?" But I don't know if I can leave everything behind again to go back there.
Sorry for the novel, this has really just been eating at my brain for so long trying to figure out what to do.

[Pursuivant]

Ah, here we go for a "plan B" - as you said your Finnish needs a bit of brushing up, and if you intend to get into Metropolia, you need to write proper. Its not like USA where you get a kindergarten course in college. I always recommend eiraedu.fi, but if you had this thing about finding a cheap place to stay - two fleas sratched for the one: http://www.larkkulla.net/en/languages/f ... in-finnish meals+acommodation+ course 440 a month thats cheap as soap!

[Rip]

What's got the job market so down over there? I keep "hearing" that, but it can't be that much worse than the US, can it?

The most important difference is that the employment situation in USA is improving, even if quite slowly. In Finland it is getting worse, and with the EU policies and policymakers change does not seem likely.

[Adrian42]

What's got the job market so down over there? I keep "hearing" that, but it can't be that much worse than the US, can it? [ /quote]

The most important difference is that the employment situation in USA is improving, even if quite slowly. In Finland it is getting worse, and with the EU policies and policymakers change does not seem likely.

He will be in the army, and after that he wants to study for 4 years.
How the economy will be in 5 years is impossible to predict for any of the two countries.

He is a Finnish citizen, and he already masters Finnish at an OK level (and his vocabulary will no doubt be less rusty when he comes out of the army) - that will give him a head start compared to a foreigner coming to Finland.

And if the economic situation in Finland will be bad in 5 years, his Finnish citizenship gives him the right to enter a plane to the UK and immediately start working there.

[Adrian42]

I would almost have to rely on welfare benefits until I got on my feet.

At the beginning, the army would support you by providing free accommodation and meals...

After that, the question will be whether you would be eligible for Kela student benefits during your studies.
You might be covered by Kela when migrating back to Finland, but you should double-check that.
Any kind of unemployment benefits (if you are eligible) are not available to students since they are not able to take a full-time position.

I could 1. Stay in the US, living a lie, never see Finland or my relatives there again, or 2. Leave mom and sister, and everything that I've known for the last 15 years, maybe come back to visit some day, but get to see Finland again. I sincerely do miss Suomi, but I also know that I'll miss the US if I leave.

never see Finland or my relatives there again doesn't sound as if it would be true. You can surely buy a plane ticket and come for a vacation every few years (just like the other way around if you choose to move to Finland).

Apart from that, it is really you who has to decide what you want to do in your life.

[AldenG]

never see Finland or my relatives there again doesn't sound as if it would be true.

Depends on what he means by

Well, my residential status is highly unfavorable, let me just put it that way.

It sounds like even leaving may create a kerfuffle at the airport and returning after that may not be much of an option -- assuming he's allowed to leave when he intends. I won't recommend anything illegal, but I wonder how many people in such a situation try to slip into Canada and fly back to Europe from there.

In any case it's better to leave at a time of one's own choosing and under conditions somewhat under one's own control than to suddenly get ripped out by the roots years later in life because of some unforeseen encounter with the authorities.

Finnish police tend to be more professional and by-the-book than American police but at the political level there is plenty in Finland of what would formally be considered corruption in the US -- things like collusion between regulators and the corporations they regulate, overlap between government and corporate boards, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the US, but at least it's illegal there. If you choose Finland, choose it for the smaller scale of life and everything else, which is inherently healthy in itself, not for illusions about chastity in government. But if you could normalize your status in the US, you'd always have amazingly much more opportunity there -- in almost every way, not just education and employment.

[Adrian42]

But if you could normalize your status in the US, you'd always have amazingly much more opportunity there -- in almost every way, not just education and employment.

That's not a realistic image of the US.
The US has a winner-takes-it-all philosophy, and when you are not among the 10% winners you are f*cked and in a much worse situation than in Finland.

Education in the US is good when you are a genius or good in sports, so that you can get a scholarship.
In any other situation, either your parents started already when your mother was pregnant to save huge amounts of money for your college - or education will not be affordable.
Universities like MIT or Harvard might be better than any Finnish university, but the level at an average high-school or university in the US is shockingly low. Kids in Finnish high-schools are better in English than kids in US high-schools - not a huge achievement, but still... is what I've recently heard an expat from the US saying - and such an observation is not a surprise at all.

Same goes for employment:
When you are good, you can get a salary much higher than in Finland and also have better career options.
But an average person often needs several jobs just to make a living.
Oh, and since your health insurance comes with your employment, you might not be able to afford a doctor if you lose your job.

In Finland you don't have to worry whether your kids can go to university, and when something goes wrong in life you will always get money and healthcare from the government.

[BlakkMaggik]

Pursuivant, yes, my Finnish does indeed need a little brushing up, but I don't think it's that big of a concern. I speak,understand, read and write in Finnish, although I don't actually ever really write anything, and maybe a bit slower at reading. My point is I know the language fairly well, maybe with a slight dialect but no accent. English is my primary language though, 100% fluent in reading and writing, and speaking of course. As far as proper grammar and all that, I don't know how good I am at that in Finnish. The way I write on these forums is just scattered and unorganized though. So for metropolia, I've picked out an English curriculum, just for the sake of being sure I fully understand the material instead of toughing it out in Finnish. Also I only write in English on here because I can write it so much faster, and I'm also using an american keyboard

I know a bit of what to expect, I did spend several years growing up there, but it's also been a long time since I've been there. Part of the reasons I want back so much is because I know that it's a better place to be, as far as safety and quality of life especially. (I got robbed at gunpoint here when I was 16!) The public service here is crap. Especially for me since I don't really qualify for much of it, albeit being a taxpayer. I know the harsh winters you speak of, I don't look forward to that at all, but I'd have to say it's worth it! Depressions suck, but they do everywhere. I don't come from a financially wealthy family as it is, so it's not like I'd suddenly have to cope with having little money.
The economic situation may be getting worse there, but should I stay here, I don't see my job/life changing for the better anyways. I've worked the same job for almost 8.5 years, although I don't particularly like my job, I'm extremely fortunate to have it.
I do need to call Kela, I have a whole list of places I need to call before I make this move, and it's so very overwhelming! Being 8 hours behind Finlands timezone doesn't help either!
AldenG, you're on the correct track with my situation. I don't think, and hope that I wouldn't have any problems leaving the US. I'd be doing it voluntarily and being one less person for the US to worry about. And yes you're very correct, I'd rather leave on my own terms when I'm ready to, as opposed to being ripped out by the roots! I don't even want to think of that.
The US is made out to be such a glorious place to be, and it can be if you have money - lots of it. Otherwise, you just have to find a job to work the rest of your life to try to support starting a family or just living a comfortable life. The politics are all wrong here though, I'm not a professional in the field though. But I'd rather deal with some corruption and pay taxes to a country where I belonged and believed in the things they do right (school, healthcare, etc), rather than getting to only keep 75% of my paycheck because "uncle sam" needs it to pay for excessively wealthy politicians and warS that I do not support. Doing the math, I "technically" only get paid for 9 months out of the year, the other 3 months of the year are gone for taxes!
My thoughts on moving isn't strictly for 'success', it's for happiness in my life. I could list a lot of reasons why I want back there! One big reason is my grandparents' mökki lol. There's no place that will ever compare to my childhood memories there!
As stated earlier, normalizing, naturalizing, or whatever-izing isn't really an option for me.
Education in the US is a joke. Sure there are good schools, sure they teach you things. But not at all in the same quality as I was taught in Finland! College here is a business, someone wants to make money off of you if you want to learn. And if you're not fortunate enough to be a talented athlete, or just plain rich, chances are you won't go to college. Or if you do, you'll spend the rest of your life working to pay off all the student loans! you are right though about the kids in Finnish schools being better in English. I speak properly, occasionally slang, but I don't... make up or mispronounce words, or just simply form my sentences wrong, yet I'm constantly correcting people around me (Americans) who must have just forgotten how to speak their own language!
As of writing this right now, I'm pretty sure I'll be checking this forum out from Finland pretty soon!

[CH]

Doing the math, I "technically" only get paid for 9 months out of the year, the other 3 months of the year are gone for taxes!

Eeeh... and you want to move to Finland? Where you will get payed less, things cost more, and will (most probably, depending on your income) pay more taxes? There are lots of good points in moving to Finland, but lower taxes sure aren't one of them.

[AldenG]

As a young adult living in Sweden and then in Finland, and loving being there, the thing that struck me maybe more than anything else about others my age and up to a few years older (i.e. those I could more or less comprehend as peers) who had grown up there was a certain pessimism about life that most of them shared, a limited sense of what might be open to them and what they could accomplish in life. And these were the ones who had won, not lost, the educational lottery, so to speak. I came to understand some of this as I came to understand the educational system better. Yes it was essentially free to all but at the same time but it was also very uncertain whether you could get into the program you really wanted, and there were few if any alternatives if you did not. There could very well be only one university offering that line of education in the whole country. (Well, the Finns who didn't get admitted could always and often did apply to a Swedish university, where there was at that time a lower admission threshold, but the Swedish youth also had to worry about getting one of the limited number of spots available.) And then as we have so often heard from multiple contributors here in Finland Forum, even after you DO get into university and get your Master's degree, you're still going to be competing with others just like you for jobs that in most countries would be done by people with no degree at all. Even getting an apartment in most Swedish cities usually meant waiting in a queue for literally years(!), something that was just completely beyond comprehension. I can think of one single city in the US where the market was anything similar to that. Possibly a second as well.

There are definitely some truths in your characterization of America, Adrian, and the economically illiterate right-wing politicians have damn nearly destroyed the quality of life and thriving, stable economy in which both my parents and I, and many in between and thereafter, grew up. But at the same time your description reflects a tabloid simplification of a much more complex and multifaceted reality that is difficult really for anyone from a smaller European country to fully grasp, even after living in the US for a time. Most of the Americans with whom I attended university were nothing like what you describe. And your characterization of high schools fits some areas, possibly many areas, but probably not a majority.

But also your post reflects the reality that in Europe, there is a much narrower, more standardized route to personal fulfillment or self-realization. You do these particular things or else. Unless you have some kind of meltdown a little later in life, your life and your economic status is pretty much pre-programmed by the time you reach university age. So you seem to be thinking in terms of how to do in America what everyone does in Europe. That in itself is a fairly constricted, but not unusual for a European, conceptualization of your opportunities in life. Bear in mind how many innovative American companies have been founded (and not only in modern times, either) by people who don't finish or even necessarily begin university, something that is just unthinkable in a European socioeconomic scenario. European companies can be very good at engineering and human factors, often better than American companies, but they have not often been the sources of fundamental innovation, which more often comes from American and Asian quarters. Yes there are companies with fundamental innovation like Philips and Nokia/Mobira, but the norm is more like Siemens, buying innovation and improving its engineering and marketing.

The US has other kinds of opportunity and diversity for people who are not single-minded or brilliant or both. Certainly Germany has more diversity than Sweden or Finland, but for the most part European youth looking for something dramatically different, even a different landscape or climate, have to try out a different country -- which fortunately has become much easier with the EU -- and probably a different language. It's likely that if you consider the entire EU, there is more diversity of culture, and it's possible, maybe, that there is equal diversity of landscape and climate, compared to the US. These things are also opportunity. But it's still much easier to move within the US. It's also more common to change career. I have an employee who just began a third career, this one as a psychotherapist, after 60. That simply cannot happen in Finland and I'm doubtful it could happen anywhere in Europe. In fact, isn't one forced into retirement shortly after 60? (A time, BTW, when therapists may be reaching their peak.)

And let's not confuse security with opportunity. EU countries offer a lot of security, and that's certainly something to applaud. But I sometimes wonder if Europeans even understand the word "opportunity" because they tend to talk about it in such limited, bourgeois terms. Opportunity may not be something that every American enjoys but by comparison to Europe it is so very far from limited to the wealthy and brilliant. There are so many ways to enter or make a career in the US that are not only unavailable but perhaps also unimaginable to Europeans. Plus we don't completely equate opportunity to career the way so many Europeans seem to do.

[AldenG]

BlakkMaggik, I hope you have done or will do whatever you need to find out realistically (not wishful thinking) what you can expect while departing the US. Don't just speculate logically, find out from someone who knows for a fact how a case like yours will be treated. You don't want to end up in a detention center as some people have done, and there may be things you can do in advance to encourage a better outcome. I hear there have been big changes in how visa overstays are processed.

[Adrian42]

There are definitely some truths in your characterization of America, Adrian, and the economically illiterate right-wing politicians have damn nearly destroyed the quality of life and thriving, stable economy in which both my parents and I, and many in between and thereafter, grew up. But at the same time your description reflects a tabloid simplification of a much more complex and multifaceted reality that is difficult really for anyone from a smaller European country to fully grasp, even after living in the US for a time. Most of the Americans with whom I attended university were nothing like what you describe. And your characterization of high schools fits some areas, possibly many areas, but probably not a majority.

The general pattern is that in the US the top education is at the top of the world, but the lower half is crap.

In Finland, any education is at a good level.

So you seem to be thinking in terms of how to do in America what everyone does in Europe. That in itself is a fairly constricted, but not unusual for a European, conceptualization of your opportunities in life. Bear in mind how many innovative American companies have been founded (and not only in modern times, either) by people who don't finish or even necessarily begin university, something that is just unthinkable in a European socioeconomic scenario.

That claim is plainly wrong.

Regarding socioeconomics, when I look at who were the richest people in my home country Germany five years ago (two of them died recently), the top 4 (Karl Albrecht, Theodor Albrecht, Dieter Schwarz, Werner Otto) all:
- started from zero or nearly zero and got a fortune of € 10-20 billion and
- none of them attended university and
- none of their companies are in engineering, they are all retailers

The same is true for Ingvar Kamprad, who is the richest man from Scandinavia.

People like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard to focus on their companies - you cannot be much more elite than a Harvard student.

And when you talk about innovative companies (opposed to retailers), you run into the problem that you usually need a good education for having all the knowledge on top of which you can innovate.


How many living people from the US can you name who went from zero to € 10 billion without ever attending university in their life?

European companies can be very good at engineering and human factors, often better than American companies, but they have not often been the sources of fundamental innovation, which more often comes from American and Asian quarters. Yes there are companies with fundamental innovation like Philips and Nokia/Mobira, but the norm is more like Siemens, buying innovation and improving its engineering and marketing.

Siemens is pretty innovative in many of it's business fields.

And you miss many other innovative European companies.

E.g. look at German car companies:
They invented the car in the first place.
And they have always been at the top of innovation in their business ever since.

And there are thousands of German companies of any size that are so innovative that they are leading the world market in their area.

[Pursuivant]

I hear there have been big changes in how visa overstays are processed.

I thought you just walked up and said hola, yo qiero el amnesty