Prices?

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
Rosamunda
Posts: 10650
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:07 am

Re: Prices?

Post by Rosamunda » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:27 pm

harryc wrote: It would be nice to tax sugar for health's sake but difficult to do technically.
There is already a sugar tax in Finland. I don't think its implementation caused any major problems. I was running an ice-cream business at the time and our suppliers whacked the tax straight onto the B2B price, easy. Of course, it wasn't so easy for us to pass it on to our customers, so part of that tax hit our profits. It was a stupid tax that never achieved what it set out to do (lower sugar consumption in kids) - Prisma is still selling pick and mix candy by the tonne.

http://www.foodbev.com/news/tax-increas ... L_gYkeUfD4
Finns pay an additional excise tax on sweets, ice cream and soft drinks. This sweets tax amounts to 22 cents per litre on sugar-containing soft drinks, and 11 cents per litre on sugar-free soft drinks and mineral waters.

"The sweets tax on soft drinks has accelerated the decline in sales of these beverages," said Elina Ussa, MD of the Federation of the Brewing and Soft Drinks Industry. "The tax haphazardly targets individual products. This doesn't solve national health challenges. The inclusion of sugar-free soft drinks and mineral waters in particular under the sweets tax is unreasonable. Nutrition-related national health challenges cannot be blamed on a single food or beverage, but on overall diets and lifestyles."


http://yle.fi/uutiset/sweet_tax_fails_t ... on/6992250
http://www.nacsonline.com/news/daily/pa ... L_gykeUfD4
FoodDrinkEurope, the EU trade group representing the European agri-food industry, said the research findings "show that indeed food taxes do damage the competitiveness of the agri-food industry and particularly affect SMEs." "There is no conclusive evidence that taxing food and drink products for public health purposes is an effective way of changing consumer behaviour," it said, underlining the "substitution effect" where consumers switch to cheaper brands.
Having said that, I do think it would be a good idea for FRESH, LOCAL (Finnish) fruit and vegetables to be exempt from VAT in the same way that berries and mushrooms are when picked in the forest. It would simply be an extension of the current legislation. Potatoes, onions, peas, turnips and swede, cucumbers, tomatoes etc etc. It would encourage people to eat fresh veg and give Finnish produce a competitive edge on imported food (and also have a positive impact on the environment). A no-brainer in my opinion.

http://finland.fi/Public/default.aspx?c ... ture=en-US
Berries and mushrooms are also picked to sell. Demand well exceeds supply, which is mainly because there are not enough pickers and only a tiny proportion of what grows is gathered. In recent years, this shortfall has been partly filled by pickers from Estonia, Russia and Southeast Asia. Finland has universal rights which allow everyone to move freely around the countryside, to pick berries and mushrooms and to fish with a rod and line, without permits. Any money made from the sale of this natural produce is exempt from tax. The income from picking berries in years when there is a good harvest is a significant bonus for many households in eastern and northern Finland, and of course also for the pickers from abroad.



Re: Prices?

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 pm

On sugar:
There is already a sugar tax in Finland.
When I said difficult to do technically I meant the way in which we are being force fed sugar at every turn with all kinds of products - and that's why I said bread is now a usual vehicle.

There've been fights about what are 'sweets' etc. and there I understand the complications and politics - but I meant how are they going to start classifying bread as a tax item - the probable amounts are 2-4% - all of it too much IMO for health nd taste purposes (eg parma-prosciutto or camembert on a nice sweewt bread - YYYAAAKKK!).

(Putting sugar in everything is not only deleterious for the direct health effects (obesity - which leads to Diabetes 2) but the sweetness is addictive and changes ones taste threshhold.)

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:15 pm

The information about content (including sugar) should already be there, so it could be x amount of tax for each gram of added sugar (or relative amount of sweetener, there's nothing healthy in those, either). It could also be collected at the manufacturer/importer level, so at retail the VAT would remain on par with other items. I'm not saying that sugar is the only thing there is - nor even that taxation would be the preferred or optimal way of handling things, but if steering people towards healthier eating via taxation really is on the agenda, sugar clearly is high on the list when it comes to health, and the sugar content itself could/should be the basis of increased price.

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:15 pm

The information about content (including sugar) should already be there, so it could be x amount of tax for each gram of added sugar (or relative amount of sweetener, there's nothing healthy in those, either). etc. .................
Yes I believe sugar amount is on label - for the most part. And I'd be ALL IN FAVOR of such a 'per gram' tax. But just look how the 'sugar cartel' was able to keep such total crap like 25-30% Choco-Puffs and similar which are on market shelves by the multi-meter away from the tax. There isn't a chance of the proverbial snowball of Eduskunta passing a bill touching 5% sugar BREAD - and all the other sweetened 'regular' food.

Artificial sweeteners are otherwise something any sensible person will avoid (except perhaps Xylitol). Nothing has yet shown these chemicals are 'safe' - we'll need at least 20-30 years of data. And anyhow they all taste bad!

AldenG
Posts: 3357
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Prices?

Post by AldenG » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:43 am

harryc wrote:...almost every bread will show sokeri or siirappi - even the rye breads!
Hmm, can yeast rise without it?
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by Rip » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:09 am

AldenG wrote: Hmm, can yeast rise without it?
It can make it from starch by itself - which also means (in low sugar breads) that he amount of sugar in the final product is not always the lowest in breads that have no sugar or malt added.

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:57 am

harryc wrote:
...almost every bread will show sokeri or siirappi - even the rye breads!

Hmm, can yeast rise without it?
Yes it can as the post above says - but we usually are not that patient.

But yes - some form of sugar is used usually to feed the first stage of the yeast rising. It can be plain sugar, honey, malt extract (mallas), etc.

But these are very small amounts and are converted and consumed by the yeast and you basically never know they are (were) there. It might actually be that the label not even be required to show what those amounts were.

(btw - for anyone baking - avoid salt in the first stages - it kills yeast)

I myself use some crystals of sugar - a few drips of honey - or a touch of malt extract (Meridian), You will never taste any of the 'sweetness' (it gets eaten up) and the percentages are negligible - nothing like the 3,4,5% on labels.

Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by Rip » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:21 am

harryc wrote: It might actually be that the label not even be required to show what those amounts were.
.
Ingredients need to be listed (in the order of the amounts), but not the amounts themselves. Also shown will be the sugar content of the final product, which will be so non zero (though small) figure for. Even breads that have no sugar or malt added.

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:35 am

Ingredients need to be listed (in the order of the amounts), but not the amounts themselves.
So it would seem that the 'sugar item' need not be in the 'ingredients' list if that amount is consumed by the yeast and 'gone' in the final product?

If there is an excess - then it would show up on the 'nutrition' list - 'that % of carbohydrates that is sugar'

+++

The ingredients list varies - often showing % of something but not always - I haven't looked up requirements. (Just noticed some Vaasa product last evening that had a big 100% Ruis on plastic - but ingredients showed perunahuitale - bit confusing - didn't investigate yet).

Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by Rip » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:27 am

harryc wrote: So it would seem that the 'sugar item' need not be in the 'ingredients' list if that amount is consumed by the yeast and 'gone' in the final product?
No, if it is put into the dough, it must be listed. If there is some in the final product but none added it must have been in the other ingredients (Wikipedia claims there is 1.8g of sugar in wheat flour (as an example), I presume that is true) or released by the yeast.
+++
The ingredients list varies - often showing % of something but not always
I think there are some specific rules (like requirement to say how much meat or "meat resembling substances" there in in meat products), but otherwise the percentages are shown if it is thought it looks good for the consumer.
Just noticed some Vaasa product last evening that had a big 100% Ruis on plastic - but ingredients showed perunahuitale - bit confusing - didn't investigate yet).
Something like "100% of the grain used is full grain rye" (I think). Potato flakes are not a grain product so the statement would be true. Not required, but allowed.

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:59 am

Something like "100% of the grain used is full grain rye" (I think). Potato flakes are not a grain product so the statement would be true. Not required, but allowed.
Yeah - that's what I was assuming. IMO just another example of deceptive advertising (what's new? :) ).

Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by Rip » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:44 pm

Two new discounts:
S-ryhmä on ilmoittanut alentavansa kahden tuotteen hintaa Prismoissa. Nämä tuotteet eivät olleet ensimmäisellä alennuskierroksella.
Uudet alennustuotteet ovat Sininen Lenkki ja Punainen Lenkki. Näistä ensiksi mainittu maksaa jatkossa Prismoissa 1,97 euroa, jälkimmäinen 1,89 euroa.
:)

Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Prices?

Post by Rip » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:58 pm

Rosamunda wrote:Milk is one of the MOST processed foods you can buy: pasteurised, homogenised....
(Ignoring the vitamin D) it is still made of one ingredient and there isn't any shortage of food products that have also heated (usually to higher temperature than for pasteurization) or otherwise mixed and more aggressively processed.
The industry is monopolised by the dairies (Valio etc). Independent farms cannot compete when the majority of consumers only look at the price per litre and not the quality of the product.
Regarding milk majority may actually accept the official line that unprocessed milk is a public health hazard.

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:11 pm

S-ryhmä on ilmoittanut alentavansa kahden tuotteen hintaa Prismoissa. Nämä tuotteet eivät olleet ensimmäisellä alennuskierroksella.
Uudet alennustuotteet ovat Sininen Lenkki ja Punainen Lenkki. Näistä ensiksi mainittu maksaa jatkossa Prismoissa 1,97 euroa, jälkimmäinen 1,89 euroa.

Never mind the alennus - they're actually fortunate that no one has yet filed a rikosilmoitus for selling that crap!

harryc
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:09 pm
Location: Espoo-Helsinki

Re: Prices?

Post by harryc » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:17 pm

Regarding milk majority may actually accept the official line that unprocessed milk is a public health hazard.
It would be fine with me if raw milk would be OK - and I even went to Evitskog to get such - but unfortunately it resulted in an internal 'express train' - maybe it takes some time to adapt but I wasn't up for that. I believe the farm conditions on well-run Finnish farms would not present any public health dangers - but it still might be 'uncomfortable' for many.


Post Reply