Anti Foreigner Sentiment? (and other questions)

Leipuri · Post by **Leipuri** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:04 pm

Hi,
Im an American military member living in Korea. We like it here a lot and my son (almost 4) and I speak enough Korean to get by. We have Korean go by names and really enjoy exploring Korea; its a wonderfully kid friendly culture. He goes to a Korean pre-school and generally thinks he is Korean

I am about to retire from the military after 20 years in service and have been doing a lot of thinking about where we would like to live. Staying here is Korea is a definite possibility as there are visa programs for US military retirees etc. There are two major concerns however. The first is that we will never "blend" here and blending in is very important in Korea. I don't really mind so much, but my son will ALWAYS be an "outsider" here. It wont matter if he speaks Korean like everyone else, or has lived here nearly all his life. You are either born Korean or you're not. Girls wont be allowed to date him and he will never know if someone is his friend because they want a "pet American Friend" for the status (weird double standard, but that's common here). Status is my other concern. Social stratification in Korea is woven into every inch of the fabric of life. How good was your primary school? What brand of jacket do you wear? Oh, its North Face, well is it top of the line North Face, or just the "cheaper" end of the line?? Yeah, not my thing.

I've lived outside of the States almost half of my adult life and I lived in Finland as an exchange student in High School. Im not particularly interested in living in the US again. I really loved living in Belgium and Finland. I think Europe is a much better fit for my values and preferences.

I don't really have any ties to Belgium that make me want to go back there, but I still have loads of friends in Finland. So after about 6 months of research, I am really thinking Finland is the right choice for us. We have plenty of independent income for the Residency Permit including private health insurance. I don't need to work. I have plenty of savings to get us started comfortably. Id like to spend time at home with my son until he has to go to the newly mandatory 6 yr old pre K. We can spend the year studying Finnish (mine is very rusty) and learning the culture together.

What I cannot really find online is how much there is an anti foreigner sentiment. I blend there. When I was there before, people always assumed I was a Finn. Speaking Finnish helped, but I will never "sound native." People will know I am other. I'm thinking at 4, my son will sound as Finnish as anyone once he has been there a few years. So will we have significant issues with being from somewhere else?

My second question is how kid friendly is Finland? Here in Korea, there are kid cafes all over the place, tons of amusement parks and city parks and zoos. I know we will be able to enjoy our outdoor hobbies like camping and cycling there (when the weather allows!), but I can't seem to find a lot on fun kid activities. Anyone with littles who can tell me if there are plenty of amusements? Muumi Land looks awesome. I figure we can take trips to Lapland to see Santa Village and reindeer races. Do most smaller towns have something like a Y? Indoor swimming pools? I just cant remember.

I am very much attracted to the idea of living in Uusikaupunki where I lived as an exchange student. More of a known entity with people I already know. But I wonder if we might find more to do in Turku....Also, Uusikaupunki doenst seem to have many rentals...

Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone who offers their thoughts.

**Sponsor:**

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:18 am

Leipuri wrote:What I cannot really find online is how much there is an anti foreigner sentiment. I blend there. When I was there before, people always assumed I was a Finn. Speaking Finnish helped, but I will never "sound native." People will know I am other. I'm thinking at 4, my son will sound as Finnish as anyone once he has been there a few years. So will we have significant issues with being from somewhere else?

As times are (financially) harder there is more and more anti foreigner sentiment. It is mainly directed to those who live on the dole, can't or won't even try to learn Finnish or "steal" jobs. You don't seem to fit in any of those categories so I can't see any significant issues blending in. You know the Finnish mentality that if one peg stands out you hammer it in?

Leipuri wrote:My second question is how kid friendly is Finland? Here in Korea, there are kid cafes all over the place, tons of amusement parks and city parks and zoos. I know we will be able to enjoy our outdoor hobbies like camping and cycling there (when the weather allows!), but I can't seem to find a lot on fun kid activities. Anyone with littles who can tell me if there are plenty of amusements? Muumi Land looks awesome. I figure we can take trips to Lapland to see Santa Village and reindeer races. Do most smaller towns have something like a Y? Indoor swimming pools? I just cant remember.

I am very much attracted to the idea of living in Uusikaupunki where I lived as an exchange student. More of a known entity with people I already know. But I wonder if we might find more to do in Turku....Also, Uusikaupunki doenst seem to have many rentals...

I've never heard about kid cafe

And you certainly won't find one in Uusikaupunki, 16000 inhabitants and all. Certainly you'll find some places that are more kid friendly than others, but finding one that is aimed to children will be hard. Turku is ten times bigger in terms of population so there will be more to do and see. Maybe better place for your 14 years old son?

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:28 am

Sports for children is quite well organised eg ice hockey, football, etc. Clubs are generally run as not-for-profit associations under the banner of the pro teams so nothing to do with regular school. When we arrived here with our 3 boys (the youngest was 5) we got them all into football and/or ice hockey.

Coming here at a young age I don't think your son will experience too many problems, at least not specifically because he is a "foreigner". I guess there are differences between towns and cities, some being more inherently conservative than others, but where we live in Espoo I don't think our children have ever felt stigmatized. Young people down here are quite international, enjoy speaking English and are generally open to British/American culture.

As for things to do - Finland is a small country so you won't find theme parks in every municipality but you will find swimming pools and ice rinks, skateboard parks etc. Kids meet up and skate outside, cycle, kick a ball around - it is a relatively safe country so children are given a lot of freedom to amuse themselves after school. And of course, social media is a big part of their entertainment here.

As for social differences, they are more marked than they used to be (especially in the more affluent areas of southern Finland around Helsinki) but nothing like the scale of inequality you would find in other western societies. Schools "level" the differences to a certain extent.

You will find it harder than your son...! Especially if you don't work. But going back to study would be a great option for you. I just graduated (I'm 56) having gone back to school to study again. It's a great way of meeting new people (Finns and foreigners), getting new ideas and generally feeling part of Finnish society as education is such an important part of life here.

Leipuri · Post by **Leipuri** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:24 pm

Thanks both of you!!

After spending my entire day to drive round trip a hundres clicks through jam packed Seoul traffic, I think I will happily trade the availibilty of kid cafes for the MUCH less densley populated Finland!!

I guess the reason there is so much of that here is the population. Tens of Millions of people packed on this half of the penninsula! There is no such thing as getting away from people. Camp sites are bursting at the seams with people.

i think the hockey and football sound like great ideas. I also have definately planned to look into a masters program after he starts school. Ive missed so much being a military mom and returni g to work when he was only 10 weeks old that the time for us to be off sounds like heaven to me. We can also work on rebuilding the relationships and making new friends.

I appreciate your responses!!

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:39 pm

I've lived here for a while, and I can tell you that Finland isn't kid-friendly (according to your definition).
I'd also like to stress the importance of what Rosamunda recommended. One of the first things you can do to make your child's life better is to get them into a group sport club/team. They'll make friends very quickly, which means they'll learn the language a lot faster. Plus, they'll adapt to the "Finnish way" a lot better.

Assuming you're a white American, you'll actually do very well. At the pub, you can tell stories about your military time and you'll easily be included and "blending" will be a piece of a cake.

Upphew wrote: It is mainly directed to those who live on the dole, can't or won't even try to learn Finnish

I'd really like to believe that, but it's simply not true. I've never taken a penny from the state, I've worked 99% of the time I lived here, and had 0 troubles with the law, yet I'm faces with prejudiced and hate-influinced behaviour for no other reason than my precieved background. I mean, it sucks, it's not cool, and I accept it; a small extra tax for living here, but I don't agree with sugar-coating the truth.

"steal" jobs

Previous disagreement aside, warmth does this really mean?

Leipuri · Post by **Leipuri** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:11 pm

May I ask what you mean by "percieved background"?

Im 100 percent on board with the sports. I will make it a priority. Not sure how much I will be at the local pub though lol.

I had forgotten how much freedom I had there compared to the States. I think that makes it a lot more kid friendly than here in that reapect. Its safe here as far as crime, but the cars drivelike maniacs on roads that are crammed with cars parked every which way, so you cant ever let younger kids play anywhere other than designated zones.

caster · Post by **caster** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:43 pm

I am bit confused - you wish to live in a country other than your country of origin. You have already lived for the past many years abroad - what make you jumped straight to anti foreigner sentiment in a specific country.

You have had heard opinions so I am not going to repeat the same - yes this always depend on our own selves - how we take others so we can expect the same from others - however there are always individuals - the greatest PIBs - around this world - who basically borns with some kind of personality disorder - having said that - means there are always mangled mind lives around us and act in their own capacity in one way or another - but they do not in any way represent any trend.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/relocated_foreign ... nd/7758978

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:52 pm

Oh, I just remembered something. How are you planning to actually acquire residence in Finland? The only thing you have is money, and as far ad I know there isn't a buy-a-residence-permit option in Finland (at least not with regular people savings).
Do you have a Finland-resident GF or wife? Job in Finland? Studies? Ancestry?

Flossy1978 · Post by **Flossy1978** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:04 pm

I lived for fourteen years in Finland. Never had a problem with being a foreigner. Could be because I'm Australian and we are in general loved

As for kids.... Yes, there were no cafes. But there are plenty of indoor play places and tons of activities sponsored by the Cities, which are free and get kids socialising.

It's so very safe in Finland to raise a child. My child was happily playing outside from the age of five, on his own. No issues or safety problems at all.

Firstly you need to get into Finland. I don't think it's as easy as having money in your account and private health insurance. Yes, you have friends from your exchange year, but you're an adult now. Everyone changes and you shouldn't rely on high school friendships.

Good luck.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:54 pm

adnan wrote: Do you have a Finland-resident GF or wife? Job in Finland? Studies? Ancestry?

The OP is a mum. Yes, of course she could have a GF/wife but I think you assumed she was a bloke simply because you read "ex-military" and assumed it was a man writing. The first post was not specific but for some reason I assumed the OP was a woman not a man which was confirmed in the second post.

But yes, you are right, the poster needs to have a reason to reside here otherwise she will not get a RP.

Leipuri there are flexible Masters programmes that you could probably fit in with any schedule. Many Masters students combine there studies with a full-time job here. It's worth looking around and a student visa would give you the right to live here, at least as long as you are studying. Otherwise you probably need a job to get residency.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:39 pm

Rosamunda wrote:you assumed she was a bloke simply because you read "ex-military" and assumed it was a man writing.

I indeed assumed that, and mainly for that reason.

Leipuri · Post by **Leipuri** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:25 am

caster wrote:I am bit confused - you wish to live in a country other than your country of origin. You have already lived for the past many years abroad - what make you jumped straight to anti foreigner sentiment in a specific country.

As I alluded to in my original post, we stick out here in Korea. The "otherness" is quite pervasive. Most people are very kind and polite to us in Korea (individuals of African or Philippine origin are quite discriminated against IMO). I had a totally different experience in Europe because I blended in so my "otherness" wasn't such an issue. But with the financial situation and a lot of the comments Ive read on this board, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I obviously don't want to move my child to a country where there would be an underlying negative sentiment that I didn't really understand until we had been there a while. I'm delighted to be assured that is not the case. I want a truly happy life for my kid and living somewhere he would always be treated poorly would not fit the bill.

As for grounds for moving to Finland, I am working on a couple of possibilities. Unfortunately, until I retire, my schedule is not very flexible to come sit exams, etc. I am looking at a number of options that may include a bit of flex between actual retirement and getting fully settled. But yes, a master's program is a consideration. There are a lot of cogs in this decision that make it very complicated.

Our next step is a trip back to Finland in May as tourists to visit with friends and the families I stayed with as an exchange student. After I have spent a bit of time "on the ground" so to speak, we can start to make more plans and look at options. Luckily, am entitled to a year of free storage from the date of my retirement before I have to officially announce my "Home of Selection" and arrange delivery of our household goods.

Oh, and yes, I am most certainly female. Don't worry, almost everyone assumes I am someone's wife here rather than a service member myself. I'm used to it and not offended in the least. I did not mention my gender in my original post as it did not occur to me to need to LOL

Kayttaja1 · Post by **Kayttaja1** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:46 am

Depends on your rank and such in the army, but you might try contacting http://www.deeplead.com/en . It seems to be a workplace for semi-retired army personnel in Finland. I do not know whether they still have contacts with Finnish Defence Forces or are they mainly life coaches for CEOs and managers.

betelgeuse · Post by **betelgeuse** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:02 pm

Leipuri wrote: We have plenty of independent income for the Residency Permit including private health insurance. I don't need to work. I have plenty of savings to get us started comfortably.

As others said we don't have a category of residence permit for people able to support themselves without working. However, if it's possible to make the independent income flow through a business, you could apply for entrepreneur status. A student permit is temporary so you will need an A type permit at some point if you want to stay here permanently.

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:23 pm

adnan wrote: I'd really like to believe that, but it's simply not true. I've never taken a penny from the state, I've worked 99% of the time I lived here, and had 0 troubles with the law, yet I'm faces with prejudiced and hate-influinced behaviour for no other reason than my precieved background. I mean, it sucks, it's not cool, and I accept it; a small extra tax for living here, but I don't agree with sugar-coating the truth.

Is this objective or subjective "truth"?
Many immigrants make claims like yours because they have not grasped that their behavior is notappropriate according to native culture. They just act as if at home and expect that they are treated accordingly. Failure of assimilation or integrarion on part of immigrant, not Finns.

"steal" jobs

Previous disagreement aside, warmth does this really mean?[/quote]
For example so called "positive" discrimination.

To OP:
You will not find many outdoor pools. We have indoor pools. And lots and lots of perfectly swimmable natural lakes etc.

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