Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:19 pm

I was involved in a car accident few weeks ago, where local bus (line 5K in Jyväskylä) damaged my car while turning in 90 degree corner. The bus had right of way, I noticed it early enough and I stopped to yield. While turning, its left side damaged my front bumper+left fender. The bus driver was careless enough to proceed without stopping, so I did not get the chance to talk to him/write down the registration number. It is also possibility that he did not notice it at all. What I know is the line number, bus stop nearby and exact time of the accident.

I contacted the police immediately, they arrived after some 20 minutes, did their routine stuff, took pictures and told that the investigator will contact back during the week. After waiting a week or so, I emailed them and asked about the case. Finally, I got the response from the investigator saying that he contacted bus company and the latter was unable to identify which bus or driver was it. So, he said the case is closed, attached report including description of the accident and suggested to show it to my insurance company. My insurance company, not surprisingly, said that if I make a claim I will loose some of my bonus and also pay €200 from damage costs. Overall, it will take about €350 from my pocket. In other words, I am paying for some idiot's careless driving.

Obviously, I don't feel like repairing it myself. First of all, negligence of the investigator is what worries me. I can't believe it is impossible to find out the vehicle/driver involved the accident, given the time, line, route and location. Or,alternatively, a green bus with scratch and marks of silver paint on its left side. I suspect the accident was not 'serious enough' for police to investigate it properly. A friend suggested to file a complaint against police to ombudsman http://www.oikeusasiamies.fi, but first I'd rather get some legal advise from other 'lower' authority or any NGO if there's any.

Anyway, the fact is that the police was useless and I'm on my own against the bus company. I believe if they 'could not find out' which bus /driver was it when requested from police, they won't try any harder for me. I'm not experienced with such matters, so I'd appreciate advice on ways to handle such case from more experienced/knowledgeable persons.

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rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:33 am

The bus had right of way
.....
I am paying for some idiot's careless driving.

So it seems that you didn't take in account the turning radius of the bus.
Looks like you were the careless one.

First of all, negligence of the investigator is what worries me.

Like you said, the bus driver probably wouldn't have noticed it. So in a case of fleeing the scene he probably would be found not guilty.
As for the damages; it was your fault. So the investigation wouldn't change anything.

Don't waste any time or money on it. Your not going to win.

A friend suggested to file a complaint against police to ombudsman

At best it would result in a report saying they could have done more. They will not be forced to do it.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:57 am

If the bus had the right of way, it's on you to stop at a suitable distance enough for the bus to turn freely.
Honestly, from your description, it sounds like you stopped too late/far into your way that you abstracted the bus' way. If I thought about, then any police investigators would have thought about it as well.
So, unless you have a dashcam footage to prove otherwise, it seems like it was your fault.

Mind you, "it seems like it's your fault" doesn't mean it is your fault. It just means that this is how to seems from your description.

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:39 pm

1. You're too quick to jump to the conclusions, just holding on an assumption that bus driver would not make a mistake even on snow-covered road where you can't tell where the road boundaries are. I don't agree that I stopped too late, but lets assume I did for a moment. Here's the thing, when I drive longer vehicle (e.g. car with a trailer) I am always careful when turning and looking at the mirror to see where the heck my trailer is cutting the turn, especially on the left turn. Now, if the bus driver looked at the f%¤#g mirror for a moment and be a bit slower, he would at least avoid the collision by noticing he was cutting too short. However, as I said I don't agree I stopped too late and I can bet my own car that in the same exact situation I would be able to turn the bus just by being a more careful. In short, regardless of where I actually stopped, having right of way does not imply the whole intersection is yours as you please and it is always right thing to consider other drivers there. And I am careless and he is not?

2. Whoever is guilty the police should have at least identified the bus and driver involved. ''investigation would not change anything'' is not a good justification for not doing your job. I am surprised to see reasoning like that. And again, you assume that whenever large vehicle damages another car while turning, it is ALWAYS another car's fault (I'm sayng it because you don't have any other argument to justify my blame). This simply can't be right, because you are excluding possibility of driver error from large vehicle side.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:02 pm

The approach the legal system takes is simple:
- he had right of way => you're wrong (unless you can prove he was reckless)
(a slightly wider turn than necessary isn't reckless)
So no dashcam or witnesses; then you have no case.

Whoever is guilty the police should have at least identified the bus and driver involved. ''investigation would not change anything'' is not a good justification for not doing your job. I am surprised to see reasoning like that.

Their job is to solve problems. Finding the driver doesn't solve anything. So they can let it rest.
If they really dig into it they might even fine you for a traffic violation (not leaving the crossing free) even if only you have damages.

This simply can't be right, because you are excluding possibility of driver error from large vehicle side.

Part of save driving is anticipating other driver mistakes.

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:25 pm

@rinso

Thanks for the informative part. For the rest, I think it is clear that we are not going anywhere with this argument. You simply don't have enough evidence to blame me in this accident, and I have impression that you are, for some reason, trying to. More importantly, it is already fairly !"#¤% situation for me as it is, so hearing speculations about causes of the accident and my role in it is the last thing I want.

tummansininen wrote:It's completely possible that the car was stopped in the correct place. I think people are misunderstanding what it means to say "the bus had right of way". It ONLY means that the car had to stop at the intersection and allow the bus to turn first - which the driver did. It does NOT mean the car did anything wrong at all.

Now how about we assume that the driver is faultless here and maybe now someone has a useful suggestion.

I personally don't know the procedures but I would assume it is an offence to leave the scene of an accident without stopping (bus driver is at fault even if unaware of impact - although in view of being unaware, this charge would probably be dropped and not worth the bother to go to court). I would ALSO assume it is not a police matter, this is a civil matter between the two drivers, a case of one person damaging someone else's property. In which case I would suggest the driver approach the bus company directly with details of the insurer and speak to whoever deals with these things. I am quite sure that drivers damage other cars every single day and they have ways to deal with this.

And do it ASAP because buses get washed and repaired as a matter of normal business. If you don't hurry, that bus is going to be washed or repaired before you manage to get in contact with them.

Thanks for your attempt to actually be helpful, I appreciate it. I am going to JKL next week (I live in Espoo) and will pay a visit to the company office. But I'm afraid as you said the bus might be repaired already. The biggest lesson I've learned so far is that I should have acted myself (e.g. chase down the bus to write down its number and drivers contact info and then go to the office immediately), instead of being calm and confident that police will deal with it.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:25 am

You simply don't have enough evidence to blame me in this accident, and I have impression that you are, for some reason, trying to.

When there is an accident (with damage) someone becomes responsible for paying the damage.
"right of way (unless ...)" is the legal way to put the blame on someone.
So unless you can show the other party was extremely careless the responsibility (for damage compensation) falls on you.

I can understand your frustration since you don't feel you made a mistake. But the system puts the responsibility at one party even if there was no actual mistake.
Those fender benders happen all the time, especially in winter. For the police (and insurance companies) it is a simple matter of interpreting the traffic rules.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:42 am

Oberon, mate, you're intentionally being an as*hole. Everybody here took the time to try to help you.

Thanks for your attempt to actually be helpful,

So you're passive aggressively trying to say that the other commenter weren't trying to be helpful.. that's just rude.
I guess now the definition of helpful is "Telling me what I want to hear".

We all understand that you're upset. Nobody is saying it's actually your fault. It's just that this is how it seems to the cops and the insurance company. This is a pragmatic conclusion. If you're looking for an emotional one with a hug, I'm sorry, not from me.
The system is geared against you in this case. You can perfectly be in the right, but still be unlucky enough that the circumstances happen to be against you.

The biggest lesson I've learned so far is that I should have acted myself

If I were you, the biggest lesson I'd learn is to get myself a dashcam so I can prove that I'm right.

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:18 pm

adnan wrote:Oberon, mate, you're intentionally being an as*hole. Everybody here took the time to try to help you.

Wrong. If you try to help someone in some situation, telling you are the one to blame and live with it is not trying to be helpful as such. I don't think you would argue that. Helping means to respond to what I ask for, i.e. advise how to handle the situation and not have an improvised courtroom here to judge who's right and who's wrong. Naturally, it is annoying regardless of intentional or not. Only one looked at the situation in the most reasonable way, i.e. 'lets assume that what he is saying is true'. From this point of view I feel the one deserved every word I said. It's bit strange I have to explain why I expressed my gratitude to someone who was less judgmental and more solution-oriented than others.

P.S.

Thanks for your attempt to actually be helpful,
So you're passive aggressively trying to say that the other commenter weren't trying to be helpful.. that's just rude.
I guess now the definition of helpful is "Telling me what I want to hear".

We all understand that you're upset. Nobody is saying it's actually your fault.

Consider two quotes: "So it seems that you didn't take in account the turning radius of the bus.
Looks like you were the careless one.", or another one: "Honestly, from your description, it sounds like you stopped too late/far into your way that you abstracted the bus' way. If I thought about, then any police investigators would have thought about it as well." So you propose that in those quotes above a. the posters did not assume my fault there, b. it represents a very good attempt to be helpful? If yes, let me have different opinion and accordingly, allow the reasoning behind my actions (built on top of that opinion) to be equally valid as yours.

I don't feel like justifying my post any more than that, it should be clear enough.

rinso wrote:
You simply don't have enough evidence to blame me in this accident, and I have impression that you are, for some reason, trying to.
When there is an accident (with damage) someone becomes responsible for paying the damage.
"right of way (unless ...)" is the legal way to put the blame on someone.
So unless you can show the other party was extremely careless the responsibility (for damage compensation) falls on you.

I can understand your frustration since you don't feel you made a mistake. But the system puts the responsibility at one party even if there was no actual mistake.
Those fender benders happen all the time, especially in winter. For the police (and insurance companies) it is a simple matter of interpreting the traffic rules.

Ok, I got your point. I'll still try to do something rather than accepting the system has some holes and I was unfortunate to put myself in it.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:29 pm

Ok, I got your point. I'll still try to do something rather than accepting the system has some holes and I was unfortunate to put myself in it.

Let's consider your options:
a - accept the situation, deal with your own damage and move on.
b - harass the police for not doing their job. => frustrated police officer => no helpful results or bus company notices their damage and than option c.
c - claim your damages with the bus company. => no evidence the bus driver was responsible => you seem to be responsible => bus company claims their damage with you.

The system is not always fair but you have to go with the flow, not fight against it.

caster · Post by **caster** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:41 pm

You are showing Road Rage Temperament here - what it be on the road - you can't overtake the law - stop honking

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:17 pm

rinso wrote:The system is not always fair but you have to go with the flow, not fight against it.

Damn it, man! Stop being so unhelpful. Just tell him he's 100% right and that the police will send him flowers and the bus company will give him 10000 euros for the emotional damage.

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:51 pm

adnan wrote:
rinso wrote:The system is not always fair but you have to go with the flow, not fight against it.
Damn it, man! Stop being so unhelpful. Just tell him he's 100% right and that the police will send him flowers and the bus company will give him 10000 euros for the emotional damage.

Are not you the same person accusing me of being an as¤hole? I am sorry if I did not express my gratitude enough to indulge your ego! Are you 15 or what's your problem?

Whatever is the case not going down to that level. Moderators will probably take care of flooders.

Oberon · Post by **Oberon** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:14 pm

rinso wrote:
Ok, I got your point. I'll still try to do something rather than accepting the system has some holes and I was unfortunate to put myself in it.
Let's consider your options:
a - accept the situation, deal with your own damage and move on.
b - harass the police for not doing their job. => frustrated police officer => no helpful results or bus company notices their damage and than option c.
c - claim your damages with the bus company. => no evidence the bus driver was responsible => you seem to be responsible => bus company claims their damage with you.

The system is not always fair but you have to go with the flow, not fight against it.

ok I'll take into consideration.

Y77 · Post by **Y77** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:38 pm

you are not only alone against the bus company, you are also alone against the moronic answers you get from some of the clowns in this forum that try to look smart.

The right answer is that you are not a bus driver, therefore you are not expected to know the radius of the bus while manouvering.

The bus driver didn't stop after the accident and that makes his position even worse.

Go to court and take the driver's shirt off, he's guilty as hell.

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