Hi,
I had to go through an unfortunate incident today at Stockmann dept. store, Helsinki. While browsing through the jackets - I picked up three of them - tried them in the trial room and left all of them there as they didn't fit me. After coming out of the trial room I took a look at few more jackets and then I came down to the ground floor as it was nearing 9 o clk (store closing time) and headed towards the exit gate. As I was trying to open the glass door - a security officer came from outside - blocked my way and asked me to follow him and another guy who had suddenly appeared by my side. When I asked what was the reason, he refused to answer and firmly asked me to follow. I continued asking him the reason as I followed him. We then reached a place where the other guy opened a security door and asked me to get in. When I firmly denied and demanded an explanation and refused to enter the room, the security guard grabbed me by my arm and forcibly pushed me into that room against my will.
They took me to a small room. A lady came and started the search. They falsely accused me of carrying a magnet and taking off one of the security detector from one of the jacket and placing it on another one. The whole thing was just ridiculous. Without any proof they harassed me and said a thief could use the magnet to remove the security devices. After searching everything and when they failed to find any magnet- they started appologising and said we realize it was our mistake. To cover up the whole thing - the woman tried to offer me discount coupons for some coffee shop which I declined. I feel like I have been falsely accused of shoplifting and have been manhandled by the security guard - lets put all my embarassment aside. I was into tears by then. Never ever in my life have I been harassed and embarassed this way. I feel like this is a racist attack (me being of Indian nationality) - and as if they had themselves put two security devices on the jacket to harass me. I am going to file manhandling charges against their employee to police tomorrow.
Can someone tell me if there is any consumer court where I can file further complaint? Any other suggestion will also be great.
Thanks in advance.
Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Last edited by swags_18 on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
OMG another racist crier.swags_18 wrote:Hi,
I had to go through an unfortunate incident today at Stockmann dept. store, Helsinki. While browsing through the jackets - I picked up three of them - tried them in the trial room and left all of them there as they didn't fit me. After coming out of the trial room I took a look at few more jackets and then I came down to the ground floor as it was nearing 9 o clk (store closing time) and headed towards the exit gate. As I was trying to open the glass door - a security officer came from outside - blocked my way and asked me to follow him and another guy who had suddenly appeared by my side. When I asked what was the reason, he refused to answer and firmly asked me to follow. I continued asking him the reason as I followed him. We then reached a place where the other guy opened a security door and asked me to get in. When I firmly denied and demanded an explanation and refused to enter the room, the security guard grabbed me by my arm and forcibly pushed me into that room against my will.
They took me to a small room. A lady came and started the search. They falsely accused me of carrying a magnet and taking off one of the security detector from one of the jacket and placing it on another one. The whole thing was just ridiculous. Without any proof they harassed me and said a thief could use the magnet to remove the security devices. After searching everything and when they failed to find any magnet- they started appologising and said we realize it was our mistake. To cover up the whole thing - the woman tried to offer me discount coupons for some coffee shop which I declined. I feel like I have been falsely accused of shoplifting and have been manhandled by the security guard - lets put all my embarassment aside. I was into tears by then. Never ever in my life have I been harassed and embarassed this way. I feel like this is a racist attack (me being of Indian nationality) - and as if they had themselves put two security devices on the jacket. I am going to file manhandling charges against their employee to police tomorrow.
Can someone tell me if there is any consumer court where I can file further complaint? Any other suggestion will also be great.
Thanks in advance.
Your behaviour was very suspicious (coming out of the trial room with less than you went in, hanging around and then sneaking out at closing time). A typical behaviour of a thief.
They had all the rights to do what they did.
Go ahead and make a big fuss. You won't get anywhere and it won't give you any sympathy.
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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Obviously the security personnel should've been more tactful, but most likely under similar circumstances they would've done the same for any other customer. They thought they saw what they accused you of, and proceeded accordingly, having nothing to do with your skin color. You should contact Stockmann to let them know what happened so that they will take action internally to prevent similar thing (unprofessional behavior) from happening in the future. If you're going to the police - I'm suggesting not to bother, listen what the officer says about it, my guess is that there are no grounds for filing any criminal charges. You had your feelings hurt, sure, but that's about it.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Okay, let's break this one down.
- Was your behaviour suspicious? Yes.
- Did your skin colour contribute to how the situation was handled? Yes.
- Would a similar thing have happened if we replaced you with a white Finn acting the same way? Yes.
My field expertise has connections to loss prevention, and we do similar things all the time with computers, but the principle is the same. When you have a potential threat agent, you start profiling the agent and assess the situation in order to weigh your options. A customer is a potential threat agent. Each threat agent has certain attributes that make them fit a certain profile, and each profile has a likelihood of causing loss. When the likelihood of loss reaches a certain level, preemptive (sometimes even post-factum) actions must be taken. The profiling usually happens by associating the threat agent's attributes with past incidents (called "signatures") and other factors of analysis (called heuristics)
So, let's profile you as a threat agent:
- You have shown, multiple times, a range of suspicious actions.
- Your actions had a clear escalation nature.
- Manipulation of items and security controls was detected near you.
- You're a young person.
- You're a person of colour.
All 5 attributes assign you to a profile of a threat agent with a high likelihood of causing loss (in other words, a thief). As you can clearly see, your skin colour wasn't the only factor, and it wasn't even the main one. So calling racism isn't appropriate here. A security officer here has two options: A- Decide, with good faith, that you're now in the act of committing a crime, and then detain you, or B- Wait for more input.
In your case, the security guards went with the first option. The law permits them to detain and search you, and then either release you on their discretion or hand you to the police.
Summary: Your skin colour was NOT the only or main factor. The law is on their side.
- Was your behaviour suspicious? Yes.
- Did your skin colour contribute to how the situation was handled? Yes.
- Would a similar thing have happened if we replaced you with a white Finn acting the same way? Yes.
My field expertise has connections to loss prevention, and we do similar things all the time with computers, but the principle is the same. When you have a potential threat agent, you start profiling the agent and assess the situation in order to weigh your options. A customer is a potential threat agent. Each threat agent has certain attributes that make them fit a certain profile, and each profile has a likelihood of causing loss. When the likelihood of loss reaches a certain level, preemptive (sometimes even post-factum) actions must be taken. The profiling usually happens by associating the threat agent's attributes with past incidents (called "signatures") and other factors of analysis (called heuristics)
So, let's profile you as a threat agent:
- You have shown, multiple times, a range of suspicious actions.
- Your actions had a clear escalation nature.
- Manipulation of items and security controls was detected near you.
- You're a young person.
- You're a person of colour.
All 5 attributes assign you to a profile of a threat agent with a high likelihood of causing loss (in other words, a thief). As you can clearly see, your skin colour wasn't the only factor, and it wasn't even the main one. So calling racism isn't appropriate here. A security officer here has two options: A- Decide, with good faith, that you're now in the act of committing a crime, and then detain you, or B- Wait for more input.
In your case, the security guards went with the first option. The law permits them to detain and search you, and then either release you on their discretion or hand you to the police.
Summary: Your skin colour was NOT the only or main factor. The law is on their side.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Iirc detaining is ok and so is searching for dangerous stuff, but rummaging through bag should be consensual. Granted that if you don't give your consent then you'll most likely wait for cops to come and do it and it might take some time as you aren't going anywhere.adnan wrote:The law permits them to detain and search you, and then either release you on their discretion or hand you to the police.
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
The bouncers should and could have acted in a more respectful way. The fact they didn't is symptomatic of these gorillaz' behaviour. They form a sort of state in the state. And deny and rationalize and make ludicrous statements (c'mon Adnan, how is being of colour a risk factor for theft? Explain) however much you want: if your a coloured person in Finland you are more likely to be harrassed by these steroid-driven psychopaths than when you are a blue-eyed/ blonde hair Finn.
I can tell from my own experience: twice forbidden entry in a night club, whilst sober and accompanied by two Finns, of which one happens to be my wife, once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out', when I was just minding my own bizz together with my brother in law and some friends around a table, not causing any fuzz whatsoever. What was striking in the latter case was that the cops who eventually came to the scene didn't even bother to listen to my side of the story.
And I am not even a permanent resident, so the chances of experiencing this is already statistically smaller... Moreover, for the record, I look foreign, but am not Arab-, African or Asian looking, rather let's say ... French or Italian.
As to the OP's chances of winning his case. Don't bother, he will most probably be slapped around with the same predjudiced, non-empathic and "the law is the law" kind of reactions from the police, society and the justice system.
Not that it is any better in my own country though
But they are less omnipresent here and still there are not more bar fights and so on. I think sometimes that these bouncers and guards are to prominent in Finland's public- andf night life. As if living in a police state.
I can tell from my own experience: twice forbidden entry in a night club, whilst sober and accompanied by two Finns, of which one happens to be my wife, once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out', when I was just minding my own bizz together with my brother in law and some friends around a table, not causing any fuzz whatsoever. What was striking in the latter case was that the cops who eventually came to the scene didn't even bother to listen to my side of the story.
And I am not even a permanent resident, so the chances of experiencing this is already statistically smaller... Moreover, for the record, I look foreign, but am not Arab-, African or Asian looking, rather let's say ... French or Italian.
As to the OP's chances of winning his case. Don't bother, he will most probably be slapped around with the same predjudiced, non-empathic and "the law is the law" kind of reactions from the police, society and the justice system.
Not that it is any better in my own country though
But they are less omnipresent here and still there are not more bar fights and so on. I think sometimes that these bouncers and guards are to prominent in Finland's public- andf night life. As if living in a police state.
Last edited by raskarhu on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
tummansininen wrote:Since when is a security guard allowed to ASSAULT someone on suspicion of theft? It is one thing to prevent them leaving if they were trying to escape (they were not - when asked to come with them, the shopper did). There was absolutely no reason for the guard to use force. The shopper went with them WILLINGLY and yet they still think they can grab and shove people and they still even refused to tell the shopper what this was all about. Now put yourself in that position, forget about how it all "looked" for a moment. Would you think it's ok - if a guard asked you to come somewhere SO YOU COOPERATED, do you think it's ok that they should then grab and shove you? You would be furious!!!!!!
Once the shopper had followed them but refused to go into the room, they should have called the police, not hauled them physically through a doorway. They offered vouchers because they were in the wrong. And they KNEW they were in the wrong. Sounds like they were trying to stop you going to the police or complain to their corporate office.
I hope the police can help you and I hope you can get the guard charged with assault. These stupid guards all seem to have a God complex like they can do what they want and use violence on anyone they please. Just because they are security guards doesn't give them the right to assault people while doing their jobs. Half of them do this job because they have brawn but no brains, and haven't a clue what they can and can't do to people under the law.
Good luck.
I couldn't have worded it better. I clearly am not the only one who feels this way about these fellows.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Our designated driver got same results when accompanied by bunch of slam drunk Finnish lads.raskarhu wrote:I can tell from my own experience: twice forbidden entry in a night club, whilst sober and accompanied by two Finns, of which one happens to be my wife, once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out', when I was just minding my own bizz together with my brother in law and some friends around a table, not causing any fuzz whatsoever. What was striking in the latter case was that the cops who eventually came to the scene didn't even bother to listen to my side of the story.
You can object to järjestyksenvalvoja all you want, but it is in their right to use force if you don't comply to their demand to leave. Or stay if you are waiting for the cops.
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
This is a classic case of plausible deniability being used to hide racism/misbehaviour. Since when had coming out with less number of items from the trail room (than with what you went in) become stealing. I would say you can call it stealing only when you leave the shop with unpaid items.
I have been living in Germany for many years - here many large department stores explicitly ask customers to leave the dress they tried our in the trail room itself (which are then reorganised by the staff).
Sure, the security can suspect a customer of shoplifting. But at the same, the customer has every right to know the reason why they are being suspected - which in this case was provided much later. Further, the security can not physically force a person unless he/she damages property or attacks other customers/personnel - which was clearly not the case here. Detaining, is one thing but physically manhandling is another. And as others mentioned, the suspect was not making any attempt to escape.
Finally, there is something else also. It is called dignity. Dear Finns - we asians are all not thieves. There are many well meaning, hard working and educated people among us too.
I have been living in Germany for many years - here many large department stores explicitly ask customers to leave the dress they tried our in the trail room itself (which are then reorganised by the staff).
Sure, the security can suspect a customer of shoplifting. But at the same, the customer has every right to know the reason why they are being suspected - which in this case was provided much later. Further, the security can not physically force a person unless he/she damages property or attacks other customers/personnel - which was clearly not the case here. Detaining, is one thing but physically manhandling is another. And as others mentioned, the suspect was not making any attempt to escape.
Finally, there is something else also. It is called dignity. Dear Finns - we asians are all not thieves. There are many well meaning, hard working and educated people among us too.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Oh, just to note: My previous comment was strictly regarding the claim of racism and the legality regarding the claimed discrimination. However, regarding the treatment itself, that's totally different matter.
Was there harassment? I don't know, this is a fine area of the law and I'm not gonna touch.
Was there assault? I don't think so. They didn't make him think they'll harm him and their behaviour had no potential of causing him bodily harm.
What happened here is simple and it actually has a name: False detention. You can file a complaint, but it will likely lead to nothing. The main reason is that the two guards can prove that they followed "standard procedure" and they have probable cause to detain you, plus you consented, plus they're two so one will be a positive witness for the other, plus a bunch of other factors, all of which are against you.
Was there harassment? I don't know, this is a fine area of the law and I'm not gonna touch.
Was there assault? I don't think so. They didn't make him think they'll harm him and their behaviour had no potential of causing him bodily harm.
What happened here is simple and it actually has a name: False detention. You can file a complaint, but it will likely lead to nothing. The main reason is that the two guards can prove that they followed "standard procedure" and they have probable cause to detain you, plus you consented, plus they're two so one will be a positive witness for the other, plus a bunch of other factors, all of which are against you.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
You must file complaint with the concerned. Certainly if the employees can't follow procedures they need to be kicked off - there is no shortage of people looking for work. If they won't get punishment or simply better training - their action will encourage them to repeat. It was you - tomorrow it can be anyone. Merely because they have the authority and they can use it in any way they want.
File your complaint to the owner of Stockmann and ask him if his child been ever treated this way - how he will react. (do not complain ask question first) send all employees of stockmann email (as many email adds you can find) Keep on sending until you receive a reply.
File your complaint to the owner of Stockmann and ask him if his child been ever treated this way - how he will react. (do not complain ask question first) send all employees of stockmann email (as many email adds you can find) Keep on sending until you receive a reply.
I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse. I'm gonna grant him all my old underwears that fit his head helping his nose stays in place
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Querfeldein
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
That's beyond the point. As far as I understand, the OP neither refused to leave the premises, nor did she refuse to stay while waiting for the police, as she was not asked to do either.Upphew wrote: You can object to järjestyksenvalvoja all you want, but it is in their right to use force if you don't comply to their demand to leave. Or stay if you are waiting for the cops.
Private security guards are not in their right to use force simply to enact a search if they suspect theft - they can detain you, but if you refuse to cooperate, they have to call the police. It really does not matter whether your action might have appeared "suspicious", or whether you fit the profile of their "usual suspect".
I am not sure what the best course of action is, but if you feel that you were harassed and assaulted, as you wrote, I would not only complain to the shop, but report the incidence to the police as soon as possible. There is likely to be CCTV footage of at least some of the altercation, which the police would be able to obtain if you act quickly. It may be impossible to prove that racism played a role, but if your description of events is accurate, then you can make this place a little better for everyone, regardless of skin colour.
Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
Stockmann has changed... there was a time when that would never have happened.
A few months ago I was with my son and we bought a wallet in Stockmann's menswear dept. We paid for it (I got the receipt) and left the store. The alarm bells rang and I was taken back to the counter. At first I was just amused, it was their fault, I assumed a security tag was hidden somewhere in the wallet and they had not removed it. I was less amused when maybe 10 minutes later I was still standing there while they went through the wallet, then my shopping bag, and I started to get the uncomfortable feeling that they were treating me as a shoplifter rather than a customer. There was no pushing but they were not particularly polite or apologetic.
I got the vouchers too but I felt like I just wanted to leave the store rather than hang around for a free coffee.
I understand why they do it but I don't like the way they do it. They need some training in customer service.
You should definitely make a complaint. I see no reason why they would have reason to stop you, all they had to do was check the items for tags. If the tags were still there, end of story. Do they frisk everyone for magnets when they come out of a fitting room? No, of course not. So why would they frisk you?
A few months ago I was with my son and we bought a wallet in Stockmann's menswear dept. We paid for it (I got the receipt) and left the store. The alarm bells rang and I was taken back to the counter. At first I was just amused, it was their fault, I assumed a security tag was hidden somewhere in the wallet and they had not removed it. I was less amused when maybe 10 minutes later I was still standing there while they went through the wallet, then my shopping bag, and I started to get the uncomfortable feeling that they were treating me as a shoplifter rather than a customer. There was no pushing but they were not particularly polite or apologetic.
I got the vouchers too but I felt like I just wanted to leave the store rather than hang around for a free coffee.
I understand why they do it but I don't like the way they do it. They need some training in customer service.
You should definitely make a complaint. I see no reason why they would have reason to stop you, all they had to do was check the items for tags. If the tags were still there, end of story. Do they frisk everyone for magnets when they come out of a fitting room? No, of course not. So why would they frisk you?
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betelgeuse
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
The law is very specific on when they can detain and search you. In a case described by the OP they can't detain you.Upphew wrote:Iirc detaining is ok and so is searching for dangerous stuff, but rummaging through bag should be consensual. Granted that if you don't give your consent then you'll most likely wait for cops to come and do it and it might take some time as you aren't going anywhere.adnan wrote:The law permits them to detain and search you, and then either release you on their discretion or hand you to the police.
http://www.intermin.fi/fi/turvallisuus/ ... ivaltuudet
"Vartija voi vartioimistehtävää suorittaessaan ottaa kiinni verekseltä tai pakenemasta tavatun rikoksentekijän ensinnäkin silloin, jos rikoksesta saattaa seurata vankeutta. Lisäksi myös lievä pahoinpitely, näpistys, lievä kavallus, lievä luvaton käyttö, lievä moottorikulkuneuvon käyttövarkaus, lievä vahingonteko tai lievä petos oikeuttavat kiinniotto-oikeuden käyttämiseen."
This means they need to catch you in the act. A suspicion is not enough.
The OP should report this to the police and they will investigate.
Even if the authorities don't press charges, in Finland it's possible for one to assume the place of a prosecutor:adnan wrote: What happened here is simple and it actually has a name: False detention. You can file a complaint, but it will likely lead to nothing. The main reason is that the two guards can prove that they followed "standard procedure" and they have probable cause to detain you, plus you consented, plus they're two so one will be a positive witness for the other, plus a bunch of other factors, all of which are against you.
http://www.minilex.fi/a/asianomistajan- ... rikosjutut
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betelgeuse
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Re: Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki
There is not. This a case that works it's way through the normal justice system.swags_18 wrote: Can someone tell me if there is any consumer court where I can file further complaint? Any other suggestion will also be great.