Mobile phone service?

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Querfeldein
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Querfeldein » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:11 pm

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote: Sonera seems to currently be the cheapest if you want unlimited 4G data (150Mbps), 20€/month with some limitations to free phone calls and texts, 25€ with unlimited everything. Otherwise the prices are around 20€/month with unlimited 3G data, 25€ and up (depending on the speed) with 4G. Basic level subscriptions are 10-15€.
Does "unlimited" really mean unlimited in Finland, and does it allow tethering? In the UK, my cheap (£10 / month) "unlimited" plan had a 1 GB / month "fair use" policy added, but tethering is tolerated if not explicitly allowed.

Also, assuming 4G coverage in Helsinki is pretty good, would it be feasible to only use 4G without an extra broadband connection? Does it allow "full" internet access (including services such as VoIP, ssh, ftp, etc.), or only www?



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Jukka Aho
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:06 pm

Querfeldein wrote:Does "unlimited" really mean unlimited in Finland, and does it allow tethering? In the UK, my cheap (£10 / month) "unlimited" plan had a 1 GB / month "fair use" policy added, but tethering is tolerated if not explicitly allowed.
I am using a company-provided SIM card (plan) and haven't been looking into the current consumer plans (or the small-print details for such) for a while. But at least Elisa/Saunalahti is currently running an ad campaign where their main selling point is "4G with basically 'unlimited everything', and with no stupid data usage cap!"

The background of this campaign is that certain execs from Sonera, a competing carrier, have gone on the record as saying people should not expect getting unlimited mobile data, that such plans should be abolished, and also that their competitors should abolish them as well. According to Sonera, unlimited data is not a healthy, viable business model for the carriers. Apparently they would like nothing better than seeing a cartel of some sort emerge and eradicate such option from the market. So the above-mentioned campaign is Elisa's response to them.
Querfeldein wrote:Also, assuming 4G coverage in Helsinki is pretty good, would it be feasible to only use 4G without an extra broadband connection? Does it allow "full" internet access (including services such as VoIP, ssh, ftp, etc.), or only www?
I have never heard of a Finnish carrier limiting tethering, or the usable protocols in any form or fashion that would matter for normal use. SSH works, VPN works, VoIP works etc. I have no idea about the P2P filesharing protocols though. Maybe they do apply some kind of shaping to that kind of traffic if you're relentlessly churning data in and out day and night.

Port 25 is typically closed in consumer-grade Internet connections, so you can't send email out except through the carrier's own, official SMTP server - or by circumventing the block via VPN or other type of tunneling. This is done to detect and limit spamming in case your phone or PC should fall victim to malware. The practice of blocking the port number 25 also commonly applies to the wired broadband options.

Mobile carriers offer plain "data only" plans as well - SIM cards with no voice or SMS access. These are specifically meant to be used with a 3G/4G modem/router and a laptop/PC, or something like the iPad. However, a normal voice plan with unlimited data is just as good for mobile Internet access - except that sharing the Internet connection from your phone is not as flexible as a dedicated data SIM card in a 3G/4G modem (or in a device with a built-in modem) if your phone is not always in the vicinity of the PC.

There are many who use mobile 3G/4G connection as their primary Internet access method. Some may have a separate plan / SIM card for the phone and another one for a 4G modem (i.e. their PC) for added flexibility. I have a hunch, though, that mobile broadband as the only Internet access method at home is more typical for women than men, since men are often more conscious about the speed, latency, and reliability issues and more likely to be gamers or some other type of "heavy users" for whom such things matter. And also more likely to have a desktop PC system instead of a mere notebook/laptop.

As for incoming connections, at least Saunalahti has had a special configuration option for their mobile plans where you can enable the use of another APN (which you must configure into your phone or 3G/4G modem manually) which hands out public IPv4 addresses. This way, it has been possible to run e.g. an SSH server or a personal web server at home over a mobile broadband connection. The upstream bandwidth is of course typically only a fraction of the downstream bandwidth.

DNA has also advertised bringing native IPv6 connectivity to their customers this summer, both in their mobile plans and wired broadband. I have not investigated whether they have now implemented that or whether having a public IPv6 address on a mobile plan by default (instead of a private IPv4 address behind a NAT) would also mean you get incoming IPv6 connections enabled as default. (Maybe not, as in a typical mobile use case it would still be safer to have incoming connections blocked by the ISP. Would be nice to have it as a configurable option, though, in a similar fashion as Saunalahti has been offering the optional public IPv4 addresses for their mobile plans.)

As for wired broadband, please note that many Finnish apartment buildings (housing companies) already subscribe to basic broadband access on behalf of all their dwellers/tenants... so depending on where you live, you might get wired broadband, anyway. For example, I currently live in an apartment block built in the 1970s and get 10/2 Mbps broadband cable access, which is paid as part of the rent with no way to opt out. (It is part of the maintenance free for my landlord, and they can't opt out either. The housing company has collectively agreed to subscribe to a basic broadband service for all the apartments by a majority vote.) The cable company provides the modem for no additional fee but retains the ownership of the device. The only thing I had to do is register online and they mailed it to me.

There are also similar collective broadband deals in newer or renovated buildings in which the apartments have already been properly wired for Ethernet or fiber. The tenants/dwellers just need to register online to activate their already-paid connection and get their basic Internet service. If the basic service/speed class does not suffice for someone, they can subscribe to a higher-tier speed class online and then pay monthly extra fees for that higher bandwidth.
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betelgeuse
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:10 pm

Jukka Aho wrote: Port 25 is typically closed in consumer-grade Internet connections, so you can't send email out except through the carrier's own, official SMTP server - or by circumventing the block via VPN or other type of tunneling. This is done to detect and limit spamming in case your phone or PC should fall victim to malware. The practice of blocking the port number 25 also commonly applies to the wired broadband options.
Most providers (for example gmail) have port 587 open for mail submission with tls and authentication so using the mail servers of the ISP is not necessary.

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onkko
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by onkko » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:22 pm

Jukka Aho wrote: I have never heard of a Finnish carrier limiting tethering, or the usable protocols in any form or fashion that would matter for normal use. SSH works, VPN works, VoIP works etc. I have no idea about the P2P filesharing protocols though. Maybe they do apply some kind of shaping to that kind of traffic if you're relentlessly churning data in and out day and night.
Tele finland basic with 2mb, tethering and p2p works. Faster non internet only accounts are limited tho if i understood correctly.


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Jukka Aho
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:30 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote: Port 25 is typically closed in consumer-grade Internet connections, so you can't send email out except through the carrier's own, official SMTP server - or by circumventing the block via VPN or other type of tunneling. This is done to detect and limit spamming in case your phone or PC should fall victim to malware. The practice of blocking the port number 25 also commonly applies to the wired broadband options.
Most providers (for example gmail) have port 587 open for mail submission with tls and authentication so using the mail servers of the ISP is not necessary.
Correct. But blocking the port 25 means you can't send (anonymous, unsolicited) mail directly to the target server or to open relays. It must go through a gatekeeper of some sort - a responsible party who should hopefully track who you are and take action if you're doing something abusive.
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Querfeldein
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Querfeldein » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:00 pm

Thanks, Jukka Aho, that was a very informative reply! It sounds like I will start with a 4G plan, see how it goes, and decide whether I need to get a broadband plan as well. I don't do file sharing, but I like to keep my files synchronised (with rsync) and backed up remotely (with backblaze), as well as working remotely, and watching video streams, as well as skype. I guess my total data volume will be in the region of 50 GB - at the moment, only 2% of that would be mobile, but of course, it would be great if I could have the same experience wherever I am.

I have seen the adds by Elisa, and saw that Sonera offer "unlimited" data for an extra 6€ / month. I have yet to read the small print for both, but on the face of it (and compared to the UK), both offer very good deals. I have also read that Sonera has rolled out LTE-Advanced in parts of Helsinki (how about Elisa?) - theoretically, that should mean that latency would not be a problem (under 5 ms), but I'd have to see how that plays out in practice. Perhaps you have some experience? I don't play online games, but latency can still be an issue for me. I haven't found any "dual" sim plans, so I guess I'll be tethering, but via USB that should not be the bottle neck.

Jukka Aho
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:50 pm

Querfeldein wrote:Thanks, Jukka Aho, that was a very informative reply! It sounds like I will start with a 4G plan, see how it goes, and decide whether I need to get a broadband plan as well.
Your options for wired access are usually cable modem, DSL, or straight Ethernet or fiber to the home. Just make sure to check whether basic broadband service is already included in the rent or the maintenance fee, as that might not be obvious to someone who has just moved in.

As described above, in my apartment, the broadband access I was already paying for - as a non-itemized part of rent - was technically provided via a cable modem, which was only delivered to me and activated for my use after I registered online. Before the registration and receiving the modem, you couldn't tell that there's any kind of Internet access I would be "entitled" to without purchasing access devices on my own or paying additional fees for a broadband subscription. (But there was - I just had to extract this information from the landlord so I could register with the correct ISP and receive my "free" service.)
Querfeldein wrote:I have also read that Sonera has rolled out LTE-Advanced in parts of Helsinki (how about Elisa?) - theoretically, that should mean that latency would not be a problem (under 5 ms), but I'd have to see how that plays out in practice. Perhaps you have some experience? I don't play online games, but latency can still be an issue for me. I haven't found any "dual" sim plans, so I guess I'll be tethering, but via USB that should not be the bottle neck.
Sorry, I've got no practical information on the LTE coverage or latency issues. My personal mobile data usage is generally on the light side: simple browsing on the phone, SSH sessions and journey planner app usage while commuting on a bus or doing errands around the city. I only tether to a notebook if on a longer journey, or staying in some rural location with no other way to access the Internet, and carrying a notebook with me in the first place. Which doesn't really happen too often.

Note that if you're working, your employer might offer you a company SIM card; sometimes with the option to transfer your personal phone number on it and the possibility of using it for personal calls and mobile Internet access, both in and out of work hours. Which means you might not need to subscribe to a personal mobile plan at all. The benefit is taxed as if you were paid €20 on top of your "normal" monthly paycheck; you only pay the tax calculated from that sum. The mobile plan is managed by the company, and it might have "unlimited everything", at least for domestic use. But better check with your employer if they offer such a benefit - and if so, whether the plan they have chosen to offer has any limits you might hit. Needless to say, things might get hairy (or at least complicated for the company payroll clerk) if you use the company SIM card for paying for services which appear on the phone bills. But if you don't need that, it is otherwise typically a fairly good deal.
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by Upphew » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:26 am

About 4G: new building regulations have made windows non transparent to RF. So new building with concrete walls (rebar acting like a Faraday cage) might have problem with 4G connectivity. Or even with radio. Same issue can happen with older buildings after window renovation.
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onkko
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Re: Mobile phone service?

Post by onkko » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:00 pm

Upphew wrote:About 4G: new building regulations have made windows non transparent to RF. So new building with concrete walls (rebar acting like a Faraday cage) might have problem with 4G connectivity. Or even with radio. Same issue can happen with older buildings after window renovation.
Or "non element" buildings build in 1965 if you want to use it in toilet. Goddammit they added enough steel in walls. Anyway most of providers have "2 week @#$% this !"#¤% wont work" period.
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