Citizenship Application 2021

[yrtti]

I think you guys rely too much on the legislation!

As someone who has lived here for over a decade I can tell you that Finns do everything according to the book/law. There's nothing wrong with this, it's how the country keeps operating smoothly and it also means that everyone is generally treated as equals. No one is above the rules per say. So whilst it might look like some of the interpretation of the law that is going on, is a bit irrational or unnecessary, I would argue that knowing my rights is one of the sole reasons I've been able to live comfortably here. As I know for a fact there would have been quite a few situations where I would have been taken heavily advantage of if I had not known where I stand legally. In short, I think the only way to know something for sure, is to know if it has been written into law.

Initially I was thinking that military service in Finland is arranged like in 3rd world countries! in a way that as soon as one is liable for it, that person should be drafted immediately! However, after talking to some Finnish friends and learning more about the procedures, I found-out that there are only two call-up events in each year in July and January which are usually reserved for Finnish youth (18yo) well in advance as study places are reserved. Hence there are no Call-ups for naturalized citizens but instead regional offices will examine men liable on a case by case basis!

Unlike all the legalities that have been quoted over and over, your comment is purely just conjecture and opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but I think you'd be wrong. At least based on my own anecdotes I know far more people who were naturalized and still have served at the age of 30, than those who have not. In that, ALL of the people I know who were naturalized at 30 or younger served and NONE got out of it. Meaning that if I don't want to have to do it, I need to know exactly how that is possible from a legal point-of-view.

This means that regardless of the time being granted citizenship before July or after that in the year one turns 30yo, you'll be invited for military service assessment only if there's space/needs! Considering Corona situation and limitation it has imposed, it seems highly unlikely that regional offices would want a 30yo who has just become citizen which may have a lot of physical, financial, and not to forget Finnish language deficiencies to replace an 18yo Finnish youth!

Again, I think you'd be wrong. The law is pretty clear here. Anyone who gets citizenship after the age of 18, the only thing that concerns them legally is that they will be asked for an assessment if they have never had one. Presumably this would ALWAYS be the case, as they would not have an assessment for duty at any time before they became a citizen (as non-citizens are not subject to conscription). There's really nothing more to it. Haven't had an assessment? Then the law says that you get one. For them to even know if you are fit/able wouldn't be unfairly inconvenienced and all that, you need to be assessed, so your statement is sort of a catch-22. They don't know until they ask, and the law simply states that they ask. Furthermore, it states that you're obligated to tell and show up and if you don't, you're committing an offense. In fact, I cannot find the article now but there was an YLE article written at the end of 2019 that stated Finland was pushing hard for the revoking of citizenship for those who refused their army service, though it seemed to concern really only those who were granted it overseas but did not show up to Finland to serve (simply living overseas was not a valid excuse). So these people were moved to have their decision reversed if they didn't fly to Finland and serve.

In any eventuality, one can always ask for compassionate exemption based on all the above personal issues. There's also civil service which I read can usually be postponed up to three years because of personal financial difficulties, which means there is an appeal process even for that!

True but I would obviously like to avoid relying on such things. Like I said, this is a country where everything is generally done according to the book/law. No one is above that. I don't really have compassionate grounds either. I'm not looking after kids or anything. As for the postponing of 3 years, 3 years is the maximum and as far as I understand it's on a case-by-case basis. They can ask you to take an assessment again the following year if it seems that your unsuitability is only going to have you miss the that year's call-ups and is a result of a short-term problem. Furthermore, it's written in the law (can't remember what section and the exact specifics) that service can be postponed up until the conscript is 27/28 years of age. After which, no more postponing occurs, you either do your service or you are permanently exempted if there is good reason at that time. I'm not about to go on record or lie either and fake reasons (aka "dodge the draft" in §122). I'm not a dishonest person, I just have my own reasons for not wanting to do the service.

I personally think that like everything else in Finland that a foreigner (especially non-European/white) is considered a burden compared to a native Finn, most probably it's the same in the eyes of military's regional offices mangers when it comes to drafting 30yo foreigners!

I think you'd find that in war everyone is as unequal as each other... A 30 year old conscript is just as useful (maybe even more so) than a fresh 18 year old native Finn. I also speak near native Swedish and professional level Finnish so I couldn't claim "language ignorance".

Anyway, I think it's just best to go according to the laws. I think the only thing that isn't written in the law, but is very likely is that if you are 30 years of age at the time you get citizenship granted, and the date you were granted is after the second and final draft/call-up (first week of July every year). Then you are most likely not going that year. You maybe called for an assessment, you would have the possibility presumably to state that it is pointless because you are excepted next year from duty and wouldn't be going this year (and definitely don't want to next year). Whether they would honor that, I've no idea. But for me personally, the only logical conclusion by which I measured everything else, is that things would go according to the book. Which is, you're excepted from service, so they would either not ask for assessment in the first place or would relieve you from needing to be assessed and thus serving when you mentioned it. Seeing as everything is done by the book/law.

Also I read up on what Coronavirus has done this year regarding conscription and the answer is absolutely nothing. Only spread out assessments a bit and you have to wash your hands etc and stand a little further away from others when in groups. It has not resulted in less conscripts serving at all. There is no way Finland would let people dodge because of Coronavirus unless you were infected with it.

I think it's probably good to get back on full topic of citizenship applications now I think I know enough. I will just apply later into the year and yes I guess argue that I am excepted if I get it before year's end and they send me an assessment notice.

[Marty2000]

Thanks yrtti for your detailed response!

I admire you for knowing the law and acting on it, as I would do the same. However, at least my experience in Finland contradicts the notion that just because of legislation then I know where I’m standing!

One common example that most foreigners in Finland have experienced is the fact that legislations emphatically condemn any discrimination, but still a foreigner is discriminated relentlessly in job market, housing market, etc!

If I elaborate, imagine It’s a 30yo from X-Y Middle Eastern/African country who has come to Finland legally at age 24-25 and now going to be granted Finnish citizenship. As a non-white person He’s been experiencing discrimination in all aspects of life from job market (not being acknowledged even as a candidate) to housing market (only being able to live in houses arranged by social services since open market wouldn’t rent out to someone non-white).

Considering this background, Why would military officials want to draft such a person? When this person wouldn’t be trusted to be the cashier at a supermarket, why would they trust him with military equipment?

My point is that though legislation emphasises equality, but as other avenues of life in Finland, most probably military service decision makers would see certain foreigners as not fit for their purpose (at least in peacetime!)

[F_S]

Thinking aloud:

So, you need to have A-lived in Finland for 5 years before you receive a positive decision on your citizenship application. The period of residence required of you is 4 years only if:

- you have a Finnish spouse, or
- you have a permanent job, or
- you have bought a piece of property in Finland, or
- you have children or a child in Finland, or
- you initially moved here as a refugee

If none of the above applies to you and you have applied for citizenship after 4 years instead of 5 years, your citizenship application will not be rejected but stay pending until the 5-year requirement is accumulated.


(Prove me wrong if you know a contradictory case).

[yrtti]

Thanks yrtti for your detailed response!

I admire you for knowing the law and acting on it, as I would do the same. However, at least my experience in Finland contradicts the notion that just because of legislation then I know where I’m standing!

One common example that most foreigners in Finland have experienced is the fact that legislations emphatically condemn any discrimination, but still a foreigner is discriminated relentlessly in job market, housing market, etc!

Thanks for the compliment. Yes sadly law only tells one what their rights are, it does not generally dictate how one treats others and what prejudices they may have. Obviously the situation is not just black & white. However, I think at least for the topic of conscription there is little to no room for expectations or negotiation outside the general consensus and rules that everyone must follow.

If I elaborate, imagine It’s a 30yo from X-Y Middle Eastern/African country who has come to Finland legally at age 24-25 and now going to be granted Finnish citizenship. As a non-white person He’s been experiencing discrimination in all aspects of life from job market (not being acknowledged even as a candidate) to housing market (only being able to live in houses arranged by social services since open market wouldn’t rent out to someone non-white).

Considering this background, Why would military officials want to draft such a person? When this person wouldn’t be trusted to be the cashier at a supermarket, why would they trust him with military equipment?

I think this is maybe an extreme case. I've some friends from the middle-east who yes, have faced a lot of discrimination and some difficulty renting (mostly from private persons) and finding work. Both the renting and job finding "experience" for foreigners have been researched at length and there is definitely proof of discrimination in these areas and many more. However, using my own anecdotes those that I know from the Middle-East and Asia and so on (aka, non-whites) well they're quite integrated. At least I would argue most I know personally are.

More to the point however, I don't think the background of someone whom recently attained citizenship, and them being non-white matters to those who are drafting men for conscription. Why would it? I mean, you didn't give any real reason why such a thing would matter. What matters only is that those who are citizens are drafted according to law, between the ages of (roughly) 18 and 31, unless there is a significant reason to not do so. In the latter case, when there is a reason for them not to go. The consensus is to just re-assess them at a later date, which continues until such time as they approach closely the age of 30 (exemption) and are either forced to go, or are given a pardon. The latter case of a pardon is literally unheard of, except in the most serious of cases like mental instability or serious physical or health issues.

In short, "trust" is only one such factor. Of course there is a LOT of thought, tests, background checks and so on and so forth that comes before putting a weapon in someone's hands. In a general sense, one goes through a massive background check (perhaps the most detailed one can get) BEFORE they are even given citizenship status. If one was not trustworthy, you would expect that to influence the decision on their citizenship (and thus eligibility for service) in the first place. So those males who are given citizenship are already half-way decent/trustworthy persons whom would be highly likely to serve their conscription. Now I don't presume to know how many cases of "friendly fire" or similar incidents have occurred in the army here in Finland, least of all from those of foreign backgrounds. But ok, if we are to continue with this hypothetical scenario. What's the worst that could happen, the person goes on a shooting spree once given a gun? I've literally never heard of this happening and I am absolutely sure that if there was any real level of doubt in the person's trustworthiness and stability, the decision for them to serve would be a resounding NO.

Still this has nothing to do with me of course.

My point is that though legislation emphasises equality, but as other avenues of life in Finland, most probably military service decision makers would see certain foreigners as not fit for their purpose (at least in peacetime!)

Yes sure, but I doubt in your such example, that it would be merely due to the color of their skin or their birth country/original citizenship. You go through a full psyche analysis, criminal history check, fitness test and so on. I'm pretty sure they even go through some of your socials (where public and possible) and check your friends and acquaintances. It's reasonable to assume that if you were posting racist !"#¤% on Twitter they'd give you a firm NO, but if it was just a matter of your skin color? I'd expect anyway that all decisions on whether or not someone serves would be not only peer-reviewed and decided by more than one person, but if one of those people had nothing but an unfounded hunch over their skin color or something else, they'd be in hot water over discrimination charges.

For fun I tired a few ways to look up cases of friendly fire in Finland. I couldn't find any, only a case way back in 2007 where 3 Finnish peacekeepers fired on another Finnish peacekeeper and this was in Afghanistan and presumably with explosive weapons. 2 were charged for causing injury and one for duty violation. The guard victim was seriously wounded. I couldn't even find public cases of a weapon misfire or something similar occurring in Finland, in the Finnish army, nor any records of dishonorable discharges.

[yrtti]

Thinking aloud:

So, you need to have A-lived in Finland for 5 years before you receive a positive decision on your citizenship application. The period of residence required of you is 4 years only if:

- you have a Finnish spouse, or
- you have a permanent job, or
- you have bought a piece of property in Finland, or
- you have children or a child in Finland, or
- you initially moved here as a refugee

If none of the above applies to you and you have applied for citizenship after 4 years instead of 5 years, your citizenship application will not be rejected but stay pending until the 5-year requirement is accumulated.


(Prove me wrong if you know a contradictory case).

Possibly. I think this would only happen if you were unlucky enough to have to wait 11 months without your application being even looked at. Otherwise you'd be outright declined. I know for a fact that if you apply for citizenship 3 months before your 4th year (with strong-ties) or 5th year (without strong-ties). Then they will not process it until at the earliest, the date in which you have met the 4 or 5 year residence time requirement. So that will add a minimum of 3 months additional processing time.

Bad/low quality applications take longer for sure. Paper applications take considerably longer. So do applications from countries where the background checks and discussion with the local authorities in the applicant's country of origin are very slow or not very advanced. If the applicant has lived in a lot of countries, they get a background check for each. This also extends the time. So do applications that are incomplete or have tons of documentation like huge stacks of payslips and foreign income and so on. It will take longer also if you have traveled out of the country a lot and especially if you have lived outside of it. If you have fines, a criminal history, et cetera. All of it will most likely add to the processing time.

Basically if there are any issues or concerns at all, even for example some nasty social media posts of yours are found. It can take time as many of the applications are peer-reviewed/decided on by more than one person.

As for everything else like where (in what city) you apply, in what language and so on was your application. I think there's never been anything written here that I could find that would suggest that it is literally anything but totally random. Even your queue number doesn't mean a thing.

Personally I could not imagine that if you applied 1 year too soon by mistake, that they would just leave it until you got the extra year. That makes no sense. Instead I'd expect you'd be declined when the application reached someone's hands. Meaning the reason why you are still waiting is simply because no one has looked at it yet, or they are waiting for your birth country/original citizenship country to get back to them with the background check. I know for a fact that some foreign background checks can take between 6 and 9 months. Even in that case if it did take that long, the application still won't progress until it's back in someone's hands again, who knows how long that could be.

[maskara]

Thinking aloud:

So, you need to have A-lived in Finland for 5 years before you receive a positive decision on your citizenship application. The period of residence required of you is 4 years only if:

- you have a Finnish spouse, or
- you have a permanent job, or
- you have bought a piece of property in Finland, or
- you have children or a child in Finland, or
- you initially moved here as a refugee

If none of the above applies to you and you have applied for citizenship after 4 years instead of 5 years, your citizenship application will not be rejected but stay pending until the 5-year requirement is accumulated.


(Prove me wrong if you know a contradictory case).

Possibly. I think this would only happen if you were unlucky enough to have to wait 11 months without your application being even looked at. Otherwise you'd be outright declined. I know for a fact that if you apply for citizenship 3 months before your 4th year (with strong-ties) or 5th year (without strong-ties). Then they will not process it until at the earliest, the date in which you have met the 4 or 5 year residence time requirement. So that will add a minimum of 3 months additional processing time.

Bad/low quality applications take longer for sure. Paper applications take considerably longer. So do applications from countries where the background checks and discussion with the local authorities in the applicant's country of origin are very slow or not very advanced. If the applicant has lived in a lot of countries, they get a background check for each. This also extends the time. So do applications that are incomplete or have tons of documentation like huge stacks of payslips and foreign income and so on. It will take longer also if you have traveled out of the country a lot and especially if you have lived outside of it. If you have fines, a criminal history, et cetera. All of it will most likely add to the processing time.

Basically if there are any issues or concerns at all, even for example some nasty social media posts of yours are found. It can take time as many of the applications are peer-reviewed/decided on by more than one person.

As for everything else like where (in what city) you apply, in what language and so on was your application. I think there's never been anything written here that I could find that would suggest that it is literally anything but totally random. Even your queue number doesn't mean a thing.

Personally I could not imagine that if you applied 1 year too soon by mistake, that they would just leave it until you got the extra year. That makes no sense. Instead I'd expect you'd be declined when the application reached someone's hands. Meaning the reason why you are still waiting is simply because no one has looked at it yet, or they are waiting for your birth country/original citizenship country to get back to them with the background check. I know for a fact that some foreign background checks can take between 6 and 9 months. Even in that case if it did take that long, the application still won't progress until it's back in someone's hands again, who knows how long that could be.

There is no such thing “if you were unlucky to wait 11 months”. Until 2 weeks, processing time was 10-12 months which was applied to everyone. And i honestly don’t believe people who are saying that they received in 3 months etc. Now in Migris website it says 5-7 moths. But you never know if they will change that or keep processing faster. About conscription, as far as I know, you will be called to army duty if you are younger than 30. Only way to avoid this is moving outside finland the day you get your citizenship and passport. And yes, they decline if you apply earlier than you should, they dont keep your case open until you fulfill your residency time. Thats why they say only apply max 3 months before your residency reaches its requested period.

1 more thing, i got the info that migri is processing the application which is made in early March 2020 now. (so kamu queue number is bs)

[Jbesson]

Any news on the rest of you guys waiting for your decisions? When did you apply and what is your queue number (not that it makes much sense but still )

I visited Migri Lappeenranta on 25.11.2020
my queue as of today 3467, moves like 10 steps per day
Stage 1

[yrtti]

There is no such thing “if you were unlucky to wait 11 months”. Until 2 weeks, processing time was 10-12 months which was applied to everyone. And i honestly don’t believe people who are saying that they received in 3 months etc.

Well I would like to believe people. Just because your's and some other people's experience is a lot longer doesn't mean that everyone else is simply lying. I gave a lot of reasons why it can take longer for some and not for others. It comes down to a lot of factors that I think people would like to ignore or remain ignorant of. The truth is that many people actually fill in the application badly and have weaker arguments and more obstacles in the way, making things less clear for getting citizenship. That's just a fact.

Anyway just my 2c.

[manamak]

Any news on the rest of you guys waiting for your decisions? When did you apply and what is your queue number (not that it makes much sense but still )

I visited Migri Lappeenranta on 25.11.2020
my queue as of today 3467, moves like 10 steps per day
Stage 1

Applied on 7.12.2020 in Helsinki, My queue is 3703.
This is the last queue changes which I track daily
-27, -11, -30 , -20, 0, -6, -28, -14, -18, -7, 8 , -23, -19, -9, -7, 0 , 0 , -4, -12, -5

[Alexithymia_again]

1 more thing, i got the info that migri is processing the application which is made in early March 2020 now. (so kamu queue number is bs)

Most Probably for the applicants not on the "country list". For those of us who belong to one of those countries on the list, the processing time has increased from 16 months to 18 months now. Case in point, applied on 11th oct 2019 and still at the first stage "waiting for processing". on the other hand, yes kamu is BS.

[annie333]

Any news on the rest of you guys waiting for your decisions? When did you apply and what is your queue number (not that it makes much sense but still )

I visited Migri Lappeenranta on 25.11.2020
my queue as of today 3467, moves like 10 steps per day
Stage 1

Visited in Migri in Raisio on 22.02.2020
Entered stage 2 on 21.01.2021 (after 11 months on stage 1)
queue number 997
country not on migri's list

[Jbesson]

There is no such thing “if you were unlucky to wait 11 months”. Until 2 weeks, processing time was 10-12 months which was applied to everyone. And i honestly don’t believe people who are saying that they received in 3 months etc.

Well I would like to believe people. Just because your's and some other people's experience is a lot longer doesn't mean that everyone else is simply lying. I gave a lot of reasons why it can take longer for some and not for others. It comes down to a lot of factors that I think people would like to ignore or remain ignorant of. The truth is that many people actually fill in the application badly and have weaker arguments and more obstacles in the way, making things less clear for getting citizenship. That's just a fact.

Anyway just my 2c.

There was an interesting post in the last year forum, a guy who works as social worker (might be a Migri undercover agent, who knows) wrote about the citizenship consideration procedure. There is a lot of interesting insight and it might give some of you a bit more clarity (if it’s all true of course). You can find that post from page 22, it starts with “I personally work as social worker (sosiaalialan ohjaaja)”

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=99023&start=315#top

[mesim]

Visited in Migri on 10.11.2020
stage 1, queue number 2970
country not on migri's list
--------------------------------------
I got a bit worried about the conscription, as I am turning 30 in the current year. I called one of army offices (aluetomisto) and asked whether I am likely to be drafted or not. At least based on what they said, it is unlikely and in case I am required for checks, I can argue that I do not fit for service (I guess one might argue that he is in the middle of his studies).
Fingers crossed that nothing bad would happen.

[dbest_88]

visited migri 29.01.2020
the number on the queue is 831
still in stage 1
country on the list

[betelgeuse]

I will try one more time to understand this, going by the unofficial translation.

§13 Call-up candidates include every male citizen of Finland who

1) turns 18 years of age during the year of the call-up,
2) has not attended the previous call-up to which he was summoned, unless he has received a separate decision concerning his fitness for military service, and has not yet turned 30 years of age or will turn 30 during the call-up year, or,
3) has been summoned back to call-ups pursuant to section 10(2).

Call-up candidates do not include persons who have been granted Finnish citizenship or a decision about citizenship during or after the year they turn 18 years of age. These persons can, however, be summoned to an examination pursuant to section 26.

For people in bold, this sends to:

§26 Assessment of fitness for military service

The regional office may decide on the fitness for military service of a person liable for military service if:
1) the person has not participated in the call-up,
2) the person has been ordered to participate in an assessment in accordance with section 10(2),
3) the person’s fitness for military service has changed in the period be-tween the call-up and the induction date, or after military service or reservist training, or
4) the person is a person referred to in section 13(2).

So you're saying the underlined §26(4) does not count for the following:

Call-up candidates do not include persons who have been granted Finnish citizenship or a decision about citizenship during or after the year they turn 18 years of age. These persons can, however, be summoned to an examination pursuant to section 26.

In that case, if you're certain that underlined part §26(4) doesn't apply to the part in bold in §13.

I am not saying that. There's just a two-way reference in the act. It should be §26(1)(4) instead of §26(4).

One final thing though is still what I said earlier. I assume that if a person got citizenship after the last call-up in a year (which is roughly the first week of July every year). You'd be moved to the following year. However, the following year you'd be excused, going by the writing in §37 above. I wonder then, would they make you go anyway the following year, seeing as you were served a call-up, or could you tell them that you were now excused and didn't want to go and would they even respect that wish.

EDIT: After more reading it seems you'd be subsequent to the following if you got a call-up, and regardless of if you were exempt the following year

You do not participate in a call-up when 13(2) applies.