Language barrier

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NukkuMatti
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:27 am
According to a recent survey 40% of employers state that they don't have the capability (good enough language skills) to hire English-speaking employees. A news story (in Finnish): https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12174397

In an otherwise Finnish-speaking work place, it could create a major disruption if everyone had to start using English with one colleague.
True, but communication with a colleague in Finnish, would in most cases not require fluent Finnish.
If I take myself as an example again, I have had työharjoitelu with a company where the colleague I worked with (owner of the company) did not speak one word English. I was in Finland for 1 year and this työharjoitelu was part of my language integration course from TE-office. I had no problem communicating the essential work related issues. (Elevator Company). Remember that communication is 80% non-verbal...

So basically requesting fluent Finnish for a job is only needed for a lawyer or a judge. You see, the problem is not so much hiring people speaking English, the problem is the requirement of fluent Finnish in the job advertisement and the idea of the recruiter that it is essential for the job.

Event in healthcare the doctors from Estonia and nurses from zambia and spain, they really do NOT speak fluent Finnish. They get the job because there is such a big demand for doctors and nurses that they settle for sufficient Finnish instead.
The same is true for (as I said before) bus drivers and cleaners, the jobs Finns do not want to do anymore because they think the work sucks, the payment sucks, the times suck etc.
You will not see a former Minister of Justice, become a bus driver here in Finland. In the Netherlands there was one..Fred Teeven (hate the guy but that is personal) who went to drive a bus after a new government was installed and he was replaced by the next one.

The article also states and confirms again what I already said before to FinlandGirl:
Tutkimusten mukaan jo ulkomaalainen nimi aiheuttaa sen, että osa yrityksistä ei edes kutsu hakijaa haastatteluun, vaikka tämä olisi kuinka pätevä.

So I get it why but it does not make it right, and we all can see it is true that foreigner discrimination happens systematically, so why are Finns or other forum users denying it exists when it is even reported in the Finnish news...The majority of Finland is still in denial so no progress can be made.

It is like a love affair gone bad: first there is denial, then there is anger, then there is sadness, then there is acceptance. Finland is stuck at the denial phase, I have passed to acceptance long ago....however on the forum I do let myself get sucked into the anger phase at moments, when several deniers come by and spew their misconceptions again... Luckily I do not let myself get drawn into the sadness phase anymore, that is long passed.



Re: Language barrier

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:02 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:27 am
According to a recent survey 40% of employers state that they don't have the capability (good enough language skills) to hire English-speaking employees. A news story (in Finnish): https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12174397

In an otherwise Finnish-speaking work place, it could create a major disruption if everyone had to start using English with one colleague.
True, but communication with a colleague in Finnish, would in most cases not require fluent Finnish.
You must be able to understand everything you read, and everything that is spoken in a meeting.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am
If I take myself as an example again, I have had työharjoitelu with a company where the colleague I worked with (owner of the company) did not speak one word English. I was in Finland for 1 year and this työharjoitelu was part of my language integration course from TE-office. I had no problem communicating the essential work related issues. (Elevator Company). Remember that communication is 80% non-verbal...
The other 20% is when the elevator kills a person.

It can be a huge legal problem for the company if they knew that your Finnish was not good enough to understand everything.
Who is legally liable for compensation and prosecution under criminal law if the elevator kills a person due to you misunderstanding an instruction?

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:57 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:27 am
According to a recent survey 40% of employers state that they don't have the capability (good enough language skills) to hire English-speaking employees. A news story (in Finnish): https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12174397

In an otherwise Finnish-speaking work place, it could create a major disruption if everyone had to start using English with one colleague.
True, but communication with a colleague in Finnish, would in most cases not require fluent Finnish.
If I take myself as an example again, I have had työharjoitelu with a company where the colleague I worked with (owner of the company) did not speak one word English. I was in Finland for 1 year and this työharjoitelu was part of my language integration course from TE-office. I had no problem communicating the essential work related issues. (Elevator Company). Remember that communication is 80% non-verbal...

So basically requesting fluent Finnish for a job is only needed for a lawyer or a judge. You see, the problem is not so much hiring people speaking English, the problem is the requirement of fluent Finnish in the job advertisement and the idea of the recruiter that it is essential for the job.
Depends on what one means by "fluent". Grammar and pronunciation when speaking is one thing (it's enough to be understood), but when it comes to details of what one is expected to do and how, understanding pretty much everything is essential. It's not unlike having someone natively speaking the language, but with little experience in the job, the subject area and its concepts, thus requiring further explanation for things that experienced workers grasp by having heard it once.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:26 pm

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:57 pm
Depends on what one means by "fluent". Grammar and pronunciation when speaking is one thing (it's enough to be understood), but when it comes to details of what one is expected to do and how, understanding pretty much everything is essential. It's not unlike having someone natively speaking the language, but with little experience in the job, the subject area and its concepts, thus requiring further explanation for things that experienced workers grasp by having heard it once.
I guess a recruiter will mean with fluent, like a native... that is why the term is misused so much to prevent foreigners from applying.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:17 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:02 am
You must be able to understand everything you read, and everything that is spoken in a meeting.

The other 20% is when the elevator kills a person.

It can be a huge legal problem for the company if they knew that your Finnish was not good enough to understand everything.
Who is legally liable for compensation and prosecution under criminal law if the elevator kills a person due to you misunderstanding an instruction?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Come on, stop it now...you are hilarious.., I know you like me and want to date me but please....I know so many Finns that are in a meeting and don't understand even 20% of what is discussed....and they speak Finnish Natively, same is true for the post people get from Kela (just an example).

Your remark of 20% kills a person is even preposterously hilarious: I guess you also do not know that when you are an Elevator technician, you are regardless of your language, required to know what you are doing. Any mistake made there cannot even have a language as reason for an accident, unless you are using unskilled labor, which is forbidden when working with elevators for exactly that reason. (Yes I feel I am the teacher here AGAIN!!)

So, if there is any doubt from the "esimies" that I, as a työharjoitelu employee, can do the work (not having the papers to prove that for example), he cannot let me do it. Simple as that. So he does not even needs to say the 4 words which I need to understand, : on rikki, osatko korjaa? on which I need to reply Kyllä tai Ei! it is a non issue.

So it doesn't mean I need to be able to speak fluent Finnish. Being able to read the address, level and lift number is most of the time enough. Reading the diagnose will speed things up in some cases (practically it meant less stairs to climb).
Basically the only risk would be there if you work with 2 persons on the same elevator at the same time and you forget safety rules... but that is the same regardless which language anyone speaks...Chinese Russian whatever...

So NO!! language cannot be a legal problem for the elevator company, your hypothetical situation simply cannot occur. Not more than a decade ago and not now.

But thanks,..... you made me laugh loudly on an average boring day. :lol:

LEtranger
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 12:50 pm

Re: Language barrier

Post by LEtranger » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:59 pm

Hello Foreigner2,

Here is a non-exhaustive list of companies that posted recent/current job positions in the Electrical engineering field: Fortum, Kalmar, GE Renewable Energy, Wärtsilä, Profound Medical Inc, Valmet...etc.

The working language is English and there is no mention of the Finnish language requirement:

I used the following link as a job search test: https://fi.linkedin.com/jobs/search?key ... &pageNum=0


Here is a recent read about “Language requirements & prejudice hinder recruiting immigrants
“ :
https://www.tek.fi/en/news-blogs/langua ... immigrants


Please, be proud, strong and be prepared to encounter prejudices and discrimination during your long Journey of job search. As explained by NukkuMatti, speaking fluently Finnish will not change the equation.

Good Luck!

FinlandGirl
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Language barrier

Post by FinlandGirl » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:46 am

LEtranger wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:59 pm
As explained by NukkuMatti, speaking fluently Finnish will not change the equation.
NukkuMatti has spent the last decade living from Finnish unemployment benefit paid by Finnish taxpayers.

Such people who blame everyone except themselves when living off our taxes after marrying a Finn are not good role models for anyone who actually wants to be a productive member of our society.

For job search advice it is better to listen to people whose work life has not been a failure - people who do not even manage to find a job for themselves are not likely to offer any useful advice.


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