Kitchen renovation prices

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Dna7272
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Kitchen renovation prices

Post by Dna7272 » Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:27 pm

Hi, I am thinking about renovating the kitchen in my new apartment. I will not be able to do it myself, hence I need to hire someone or a company. I need a full service, so they will demolish old kitchen cabinets, measure, install new cabinet, install dishwasher and oven amd deal with plumbing.

I would greatly appreciate if someone could share his experience with kitchen renovation. How much it might cost, and how long it might take. Any tips will also be appreciated. Plus, it would be good if you could share a link.



Kitchen renovation prices

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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:04 pm

Dna7272 wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:27 pm
Hi, I am thinking about renovating the kitchen in my new apartment. I will not be able to do it myself, hence I need to hire someone or a company. I need a full service, so they will demolish old kitchen cabinets, measure, install new cabinet, install dishwasher and oven amd deal with plumbing.

I would greatly appreciate if someone could share his experience with kitchen renovation. How much it might cost, and how long it might take. Any tips will also be appreciated. Plus, it would be good if you could share a link.
The largest cost comes from the new appliances, cabinets and materials, depending on what one chooses. Teardown, recycling and installation will cost a couple of thousand euros and upwards, depending on the amount of work needed, more if there's asbestos that needs to be removed, or there are major changes, e.g. new electrical work, re-routing of plumbing, redoing the floor, removing/building walls,... as opposed to just replacing appliances and furniture (more or less) in their current locations.

Altogether, 10 000€ or more isn't far off, the sky's the limit if going for state of the art appliances, stone countertops, etc.

A few examples of labor costs (in Finnish): https://www.etuovi.com/koti/blogi/mita- ... simerkkia/

KenKenKen
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by KenKenKen » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:14 am

Hi,

My friend has just done my kitchen renovation,
He used IKEA service, also bought everything from IKEA.
But he has installed everything by himself.
also, demolish the old one himself.
it really depends on how big your kitchen is and its design.
But my friends spent about EUR 7000 on it.
it is the kitchen with a stone countertop, that's why it is more pricy.
And the countertop is the main cost driven.
I hope it helps.

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network_engineer
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by network_engineer » Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:32 pm

Hello!

Some thoughts...
  • Measurement: You can do the measurement yourself OR use a company like Kokodiili to do the measurement. It is not rocket science, just be accurate, e.g. the position of the water vents, pipes, the exhaust, distance to the radiators etc.
  • Ordering: I took offers from multiple companies. Most companies, the structural material seemed and felt quite the same. The hinges etc. might be better quality. Ikea, e.g. has 25 years guarantee of some models. Pricing: Quite straightforward, i.e. material and delivery.
  • Installation: Google Keittiöremontti, Vantaa. You can also bid for keittiöremontti on the urakkamaailmaa website, I got some good deals there for the installation. Most of them do the demolition and the installation as well. They will come demolish, and once the material is available, they do the installation.
  • Timing: This is crucial. Ensure that you select and agree with an installation company on the timing, and only then place the order. Ensure that the contract is written, that they have insurance coverage, and all pricing components are listed in there, including, e.g. travel costs, other components.

My experiences: We had planned a renovation but I did not go through with it as we had not owned the house for more than two (2) years. Why? Taxation issues.

I.e. if for any unforeseen reason one has to sell the house before two years, and you include the barebone kitchen renovation *costs* on top of the sale price, you will have to pay a 30% tax on it (myyntivoittovero) in addition to the 24% ALV already paid. Weird, yes.

No, it cannot be always deducted, case-by-case, particularly in the case of omistusasunto (owner-occupied-dwelling, it is different if it is a sijoitusasunto). I had some discussions, it could be considered as vuosikorkauskulut (yearly renovation costs), and one has to argue their case with the tax office.

Here's an example (I am using these figures for ease of calculation, real renovation cost would be lower:

Buying the house:
  • cost of the dwelling: 100.000
  • tax (varainsiirtovero 4%: 4.000e
  • total cost: 104.000e
Renovation:
  • cost of kitchen: 10.000 (24% ALV)
  • installation: 2.000e
  • total cost: 12.000e
If you *have to sell* the house, selling for 114.000e (deliberately excluding the cost of the installation), you are basically selling at cost price.

However, out of the 10.000e that is supposedly profit according to tax office, you have to pay another 3000e to the tax office. So, the total tax value comes to 54% (including the 24% ALV).

Now, I tried to get the view across, and the well the answer I got was that "ALV and capital gains tax are different. And that there is also food that one is paying ALV for, do you expect to deduct that too?"

They could not understand that all taxes come from the same pocket, wallet! Such is their brains!

A good response that I was too polite to give was that, well, the residual value (jäännösarvo) after any renovation can be added to the value of the house and remains for decades.

In case one prefers to taste the residual value of food after 24 hours, well ... △₪∢⨜ rimming as a practice comes quite close to that.

Anyway, I was a bit polite. I decided NOT to invest into renovations and wait till the two years are up.

Planning to send in a complaint. I am not playing these #€%&/()= games!!!

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:09 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:32 pm
My experiences: We had planned a renovation but I did not go through with it as we had not owned the house for more than two (2) years. Why? Taxation issues.

...

Planning to send in a complaint. I am not playing these #€%&/()= games!!!
Well, you know the law, and that they (the tax officials) are treating you similarly as anyone else.

As a sidenote, if one is unsure whether moving out within the first two years, not doing any larger renovations might be a good idea anyway, it's not given that all renovations will increase the market value to cover the renovations costs, or even more. Another thing of course if there's something that absolutely has to be done, e.g. to fix an issue that keeps getting worse, or one knows what they're doing (in which case a lot of the added value comes from their own work, designing and implementing the changes).

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network_engineer
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by network_engineer » Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:16 pm

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:09 pm
Well, you know the law, and that they (the tax officials) are treating you similarly as anyone else.
Er, no! Their idea of "gamble your case" is not exactly equal treatment, just that they've made it hard to correct it.

A friend of mine has always had a car travel deduction to the work place.

The supposed logic and conditions are the nearest public transport is >3 kms. Or way trip is more than 2 hours or something., or lack of physical mobility. The person lives in Vantaa, office in Helsinki and nearest public transport is 300 meters!!! Gets the car usage deduction.

We used to live in a village, the nearest bus stop was 2,7 kms away - *uphill.* And it used to take me a hour and half. My case was not rejected.

We moved houses afterwards since the travel was too much!

The concept of equality in Finland is not assumed, it has to be argued for. In my opinion: Bull5h!t!

It has an impact: Whenever I see a risk: I just don't invest. If enough people saw that, the economy would have a different perspective.

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:16 pm
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:09 pm
Well, you know the law, and that they (the tax officials) are treating you similarly as anyone else.
Er, no! Their idea of "gamble your case" is not exactly equal treatment, just that they've made it hard to correct it.

...

The concept of equality in Finland is not assumed, it has to be argued for. In my opinion: Bull5h!t!

It has an impact: Whenever I see a risk: I just don't invest. If enough people saw that, the economy would have a different perspective.
Try to stay on topic. You KNOW that living in a house/apartment under two years will incur tax on possible capital gain when selling it. There's no point in complaining to tax officials about it, they're following the law.

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network_engineer
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by network_engineer » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:27 pm

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm
Try to stay on topic. You KNOW that living in a house/apartment under two years will incur tax on possible capital gain when selling it. There's no point in complaining to tax officials about it, they're following the law.
1. suggest you actually read before you respond!!! The OP asked for experiences in the post. I gave mine.

2. NO, they are not following the law and I am challenging them on that.

3. I also suggest you actually deal with laws on almost a daily basis like I do before you state things. They have deliberately kept the things unclear. Not sure if you speak/ understand Finnish. Here, I'll make this simple, and I suggest you read it ´carefully´ before you jump to respond.
  • Capital gains (myyntivoittovero) are subject to tax. I have no issues with that.
  • Kitchen renovation costs
    • CAN be subtracted from the the capital gains (myyntivoittovero), IF it is considered a basic improvement renovation (perusparannusmenot).
    • CANNOT be subtracted from the the capital gains (myyntivoittovero), IF it is considered to be a routine expenditure (vuosikorjauskulut).
I.e. Whether it is considered a basic improvement renovation OR a routine renovation is always considered case-by-case, and in the absence of clear guidelines, this is unclarity before the law.
  • More matters of principles of law?
    • Kitchen cost ~10.000e.
    • Kitchens are not renovated every year or even every two years.
    • They are NOT routine expenditures, NOR is it a consumable.
    • They ARE capital expenses (perusparannusmenot)
It means that depending on who is dealing with your tax return you *MAY or MAY NOT* be entitled to a deduction. I cannot make it any more simpler.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm
There's no point in complaining to tax officials about it
Who said I am complaining to the tax office? A nicely worded letter on the ambiguities created by them refers to dereliction of responsibilities.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm
...they're following the law.
Can you guarantee that?
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm
...they're following the law.
Right, and the number of cases in courts are all wrong? Let's get rid of of all the oversight bodies like the Ombudsman, The Attorney General, the Courts etc. shall we then?

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:27 pm
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:24 pm
Try to stay on topic. You KNOW that living in a house/apartment under two years will incur tax on possible capital gain when selling it. There's no point in complaining to tax officials about it, they're following the law.
1. suggest you actually read before you respond!!! The OP asked for experiences in the post. I gave mine.
You started on topic, and then went on venting about how the tax office is not following the law on deductions from capital gain, the law on it being ambiguous, your friend's commuting to work and whatever else.
network_engineer wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:27 pm
2. NO, they are not following the law and I am challenging them on that.

...

I.e. Whether it is considered a basic improvement renovation OR a routine renovation is always considered case-by-case, and in the absence of clear guidelines, this is unclarity before the law.
  • More matters of principles of law?
    ...

    It means that depending on who is dealing with your tax return you *MAY or MAY NOT* be entitled to a deduction.
No, it means that depending on the details of a specific case one may or may not be entitled to a deduction. Something like that easily has numerous precedents, possibly also court rulings, so there's little guesswork involved by individual tax office employees.
network_engineer wrote: Who said I am complaining to the tax office? A nicely worded letter on the ambiguities created by them is dereliction of responsibilities.
You did:
network_engineer wrote: Planning to send in a complaint. I am not playing these #€%&/()= games!!!

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network_engineer
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by network_engineer » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:14 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
You started on topic, and then went on venting about how the tax office is not following the law on deductions from capital gain
*Narration and part of my experience with kitchen renovation costs.* Similar issue. Now the third time, first in 2004 (we lived in Nurmijärvi), and second in 2011 (Vantaa), and this encounter being the third time on the *same identical issue*.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
the law on it being ambiguous
Read above. :roll:
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
your friend's commuting to work and whatever else.
Well, you know the law, and that they (the tax officials) are treating you similarly as anyone else.
Rebuttal. :roll:

In was in response to you, where you *implied* tax officials are always correct and fair and know what they are doing. On applying the principle of taxes consistently across multiple issues.

You are assuming full and knowledgeable competence, how? You did not also answer: Shall we get rid of the other oversight bodies?
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
No, it means that depending on the details of a specific case one may or may not be entitled to a deduction.
This has to be a matter of consistency and CANNOT depend on individual lack of competency or feelings or opinions.

Neither whimsical. Nor arbitrary. Nor unclear. Principles MUST be clear. *All factors* being identical, tax liabilities must be the same as well.

Tax office could not deliver, neither a one-pager nor a thousand-pager on the clear rules or principles. Neither in English, nor in Finnish.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
Something like that easily has numerous precedents, possibly also court rulings, so there's little guesswork involved by individual tax office employees.
Indeed, what's your proof? Knowledge of the systems? If all rulings were correctly set as precedents, then the number of cases surrounding ambiguities should drop, no? :roll:

There's a reason that court rulings are there, guess why? Because the rules are unclear. :wink:
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:14 pm
network_engineer wrote: Planning to send in a complaint. I am not playing these #€%&/()= games!!!
network_engineer wrote: Who said I am complaining to the tax office?
You did:
Nope. I did not. I said I am sending in a complaint. I did NOT say to whom/ where/ process. You assumed it.

Finally, go ahead and defend them, I have no issues with that. It does NOT change my mind, nor my opinion, nor that I will challenge it, and will win (as I know the precedents on this). What I don't understand is the defiance and the desire to oversee administrative failures.

The opinions seem to be rather naive. And no, I am NOT going off-topic, but have you ever wondered why e,g. LIDL gives a three-year guarantee on products? Because the products are cheap, and most people will not keep the receipts for three years. Same with the tax office. You don't have clear rules, most people won't apply for deductions. To me, the implication is rather clear.

And not to mention: Many people have actually put off their renovations because of the unclarity and further share their experiences, this has impacts for the economy.
Last edited by network_engineer on Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am

network_engineer wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:14 am
In was in response to you, where you implied tax officials are always correct and fair and know what they are doing.
My initial response was solely about the two year limit which is very clear, and thus shouldn't come as a suprise. Following up on that, I tried to convey the notion (and seemingly failiing to do so) that deductions from capital gains on property sales is very common, therefore having lots of precedents, meaning that likely the tax office worker is already familiar with the practical application of the law, and has previous decisions - and their own lawyers, if needed - to draw from. Thus, even if the law text would be ambiguous for the layman, it's not like that for those whose job is handling such cases. Naturally that doesn't mean that it's impossible for the tax office to make mistakes, which goes (or should go) without saying, but that definitely is not the norm. If anything, the norm is that people draw their own uneducated conclusions from the law text and try to make a (tax) claim or a (legal) case that is destined to fail. I'm speaking in general terms, something I thought I'd add since I'm assuming you're taking this, too, personally.

I rarely use absolute terms like "always", "never", "everyone", because obviously there are exceptions is most cases. Getting hung up on those exceptions, however, rarely takes the conversation to a sensible direction.

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network_engineer
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by network_engineer » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:25 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am
If anything, the norm is that people draw their own uneducated conclusions from the law text and try to make a (tax) claim or a (legal) case that is destined to fail.
I work quite a bit with law (is daily sufficient)? Agreed, mostly on data related laws, but dealing and interpreting various directives, laws, and compliance topics, including privacy other related laws, helps me to get somewhere on the right heading. So, no, not fully a newbie.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am
I'm speaking in general terms, something I thought I'd add since I'm assuming you're taking this, too, personally.
No. I am not taking this personally.

I am just seeing a pattern of behaviour with various organisations, often wilfully. On a number of rules that are quite apparent. I have seen this in taxation. Others have called out similar issues e.g. on immigration and other issues. And even on the private side with various companies.

I have some set patterns. I never call, I write (proof of communication) and often then resort to just writing by quoting the law and the precedents including a statement that says 'kirjallinen huomautus' and that usually has an effect.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am
"My initial response was solely about the two year limit which is very clear, and thus shouldn't come as a suprise. "
"Following up on that, I tried to convey the notion (and seemingly failiing to do so) that deductions from capital gains on property sales is very common"
I am familiar with that too. However, if the deduction principles are not clear, it leads to problems.
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am
therefore having lots of precedents, meaning that likely the tax office worker is already familiar with the practical application of the law, and has previous decisions - and their own lawyers, if needed - to draw from. Thus, even if the law text would be ambiguous for the layman, it's not like that for those whose job is handling such cases.
Read above! :roll:
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:08 am
Naturally that doesn't mean that it's impossible for the tax office to make mistakes, which goes (or should go) without saying, but that definitely is not the norm.
One can make mistakes, however, if asked to rectify and they claim incorrectly that it is the law (yes, I don't have the perfect grammar on Finnish, but pretty close, it is not native, and so I've seen more than often they'll try to bluff their way saying it is the law. To which I resort to: Show me the law, and they'll pick up some hastily written statement. And then they fumble around.

And no, I am not saying everyone! I've formed a general opinion of where I am likely to get incorrect responses, but unfortunately, it is impossible to route your application to the more sensible personnel.

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agroot
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by agroot » Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:46 pm

KenKenKen wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:14 am
But my friends spent about EUR 7000 on it.
it is the kitchen with a stone countertop, that's why it is more pricy.
And the countertop is the main cost driven.
I used the planner and the furniture part of my very basic, tiny L shape kitchen says 5k! countertop is cheap wood.

It seems their METOD cabinets are not cheap at all: a full height 60x220cm cost almost 1k itself! Is it really worth the price? Not solid wood after all. Meanwhile premade Finnish kitchen packages are less than 1/3 the price and with stone countertop, though not 25 years warranty.

heretostay
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Re: Kitchen renovation prices

Post by heretostay » Tue Feb 20, 2024 3:19 pm

We used Puustelli and were very happy. I was told they were more expensive but it was cheaper than what you were quoted. Plus from your description your job seems more simple. Ours was extremely extensive job and almost the entire apartment was redone except for the bedrooms. For us the total cost was about 50k including gutting everything, replacement of ecabinets, flooring appliances etc. and extensively changing the layout of living room and kitchen (moving walls), plus flooring and cabinets for living room and entryway.
I suggest you go to Puustelli and these other kitchen design companies and get quotes. 65k for what you are describing seems way out of proportion.


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