Buy a home or not ?

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agroot
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by agroot » Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:25 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:21 pm
Best option would be a house with geo-thermal or heat pump based heating.
Isn't geo-thermal something you can add yourself, but require a huge sum of installation cost?



Re: Buy a home or not ?

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Upphew
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by Upphew » Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:12 pm

agroot wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:25 pm
network_engineer wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:21 pm
Best option would be a house with geo-thermal or heat pump based heating.
Isn't geo-thermal something you can add yourself, but require a huge sum of installation cost?
Nah, usually it means heat well (usually drilled) of hundred meters or more. You won't be doing that yourself. And needs likely a permit. And is also used with heat pump, unless you have hot spring on your property.
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Upphew
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by Upphew » Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:15 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:35 am
Upphew wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:27 am
network_engineer wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:48 pm
even better if you have BOTH radiators AND floor based heating.
Just like with pants, even better with belt and suspenders.
Oh yes. Do wear pants, and then the trousers with belts and suspenders. :ochesey:
I wonder if and how both radiators and floor heating would work. Afaik, you don't need as hot water circulating in floor heating and thus it is better for heat pump based solutions and keeps their efficiency high.
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ozil-madrid
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by ozil-madrid » Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 pm

Thanks a lot for the thorough reply, really appreciate all the details with real life examples that are usually missed on this forum !!! Does this mean you decided to rent/omakotitalo in the end to make sure you avoid vastike ?
network_engineer wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:48 am
Be careful! Housing interest rates are set to rise. Banks have been giving loans on rather easy terms. Many people cannot now pay back the principal and the interest as well as the increasing living costs (e.g. electricity)

I would at least consider these and speaking *mostly about detached single homes*:

1- Avoid places with *direct* electric heating e.g. heating coils in the floor, electric wall heaters, they are expensive and hard to replace. A heat pump powered by electricity may be better.

2- Consider longer term, 5-10-15 years, including commute. We made this mistake. We received *bad* advice from a native that one should get an apartment, then a row-house, then an independent house. Big mistake! Every time, you land up paying 2-4% of the purchase price as taxes (varainsiirtovero).

3- Be very thorough and be very careful. We got duped. Be aware of deceit. And no way out. Here's what happened:

E.g. we looked at a house that seemed to have things in order. The seller was very vocal about how they just replaced the heat pump two years ago.

After we bought the house and moved in, we were *absolutely horrified* that the upstairs floor was heated using electric heaters.

Why did we miss that? Because the heaters looked *exactly* like water-circulation based radiators. No, one CANNOT examine every tiny detail in my opinion. I.e. in the ad they mentioned heating as "poistoilmalämpöpumppu, varaava takka, ilmalämpöpumppu", i.e. the electric heat pump (and year), the heat retaining fireplace, the additional air heat pump.

Did not mention anything about electric heating, i.e. deceit.. Visiting the house 2-3 times, the seller was insistent on showing us the ground (1st) floor, and talking about the flooring etc.

ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:45 pm
I am thinking if I should get a home or not with following ideas in mind and please share your thoughts. I am renting at the moment. living in espoo, work in helsinki(need to go to office once a week). We are foreigners as well not speaking much finnish (to take into consideration for Kirkkonumi/vihti)

1 - Buy a 3-4 rooms home for my family with 1 child to have space to work from home (from espoo, kirkkonumi, latookaski, or Vihti) ? Vihti places are half priced from Espoo's good areas. Kirkkonumi already adds a lot of commute and Vihti a bit more like Kirkkonumi. Then you need to have a car and drive it to Iso omena for example and commute by metro to helsinki ?
4- 5-10-15 years perspective, availability of local services, shops, schooling etc. should be key in your decision.
ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:45 pm
5 - Continue renting but instead buy a 35-50 m2 apartment as an investment (should it be from from espoo, kirkkonumi, latookaski, or Vihti)? If one gets it from vihti for example you can pay it much faster as they're half priced. then you have stable income and safe investment done? If i ever need to leave finland, i can always come back to that place and live with family temporarily if im without a job?
5- Do take the capital gains into account for rent. IIRC, they were taxed at capital rates.
ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:45 pm
I am really amused by the vastike amounts ranging from 250-400 euros every month!!!!
6- Anything other than independent house, you would land up paying rather dearly for maintenance (weak and pathetic). I am not into slavery but also don't believe in paying exorbitant amounts for basic cleaning services. Nope! And there is not enough transparency.
ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:45 pm
I wonder if you buy a home and keep paying that vastike it is almost 1/3 of the mortage. I find that very strange and told that its not same in US or other countries. Those housing companies feel like theft, taking money back and forth adn when you need to sell the apartment i feel you might not get that back? Am i misunderstanding something here? someone help me out please with the Math :)!

Feels like those housing companies are always finding some renovations to do, which doesnt add value to the total value of house when you need to sell it?
7- If you are buying a kerrostalo, you as a foreigner will NOT have a say (legally you have a "vote", but what do you as a foreigner know?. A pipe renovation that costs 7000e in Germany would set you back by about 70k. There was an article about this IIRC in IS.

About this: A friend bought an apartment in Karakallio for 220.000. The pipe and electric renovation cost about 74.000e. So, simplest calculation would say, the adjusted value as 220.000+74.000 = 294.000. The price still hovers around 230.000, not to mention they have to pay the rahoitusvastike (financing)!!!

Finally, personally I would NOT buy anything where my views are ignored. So, for me, apartments (kerrostalos), rivitalos (row-houses), anything with a "vastike", I am out!

ozil-madrid
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by ozil-madrid » Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:27 pm

Isn't heat pump based heating also using electricity to operate? Is it just that fact it that it uses less electricity compared to electric heating ?
network_engineer wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:21 pm
BTW, you really want to check the electricity distribution prices of the area as well.

Some people have hellish experiences. I would avoid any area that has certain providers (they have been named in the past).

And I would not buy any house that has district heating.

A friend of mine was given the offer of about 150e for his omakotitalo. Prices have been raised almost 30-50%, in his case almost 75%. And you have no control over the prices, and the exit from the contract is painful IF at all even possible.

Best option would be a house with geo-thermal or heat pump based heating.

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network_engineer
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by network_engineer » Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:23 am

ozil-madrid wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:27 pm
Isn't heat pump based heating also using electricity to operate? Is it just that fact it that it uses less electricity compared to electric heating ?
Yes, it does operate on electricity as does the geo-thermal (maalämpö), but the electricity consumption compared to e.g. direct floor heating or electric heat radiators, the consumption would be way lesser. It at all electric radiators are needed, I would suggest an oil based heater, since oil dissipates heat slower than water.
ozil-madrid wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 pm
Does this mean you decided to rent/omakotitalo in the end to make sure you avoid vastike ?
We bought a house, it was cheaper for many reasons. The key being that the difference between the prices wasn't too high. I.e. if a decent apartment costs 300k + the maintenance + plus the risk of ridiculous renovation costs etc. ... or if you choose to pay 400K for a house and do most of the maintenance yourself. In our case, I used to do quite a bit of the work, except when it comes to electricity and plumbing. But I watch like a hawk to make sure it is done correctly. :mrgreen:

Then the renovations etc. are on your own cost, and preferences, you don't have to pay the housing company costs. E.g. replacing all the windows, IIRC about 18 of them was about 15.000 (this was 2005). In an apartment, it would be way more, and you don't really get a say in the quality you want.

For independent detached houses, the downside is that the insurance costs will be slightly higher by a few hundred (yearly). Water costs are about the same. You will also pay for the garbage collection which is about 7e/ time, so we have a bi-weekly collection that serves us well.
Upphew wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:15 pm
Afaik, you don't need as hot water circulating in floor heating and thus it is better for heat pump based solutions and keeps their efficiency high.
There is a regulator, i.e. a mix of cold and water heating. There is a max temperature that the PEX pipes can take. So, they have that "jakaja" or distribution and right before that a safety and mixture tap.
agroot wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:25 pm
Isn't geo-thermal something you can add yourself, but require a huge sum of installation cost?
Add yourself as in get it done OR do yourself? If do yourself, not in my opinion! It requires quite a bit of digging and the a certified installer especially when dealing with plumbing and electrical installation. Total cost should be in the range of 18-25K depending on factors. I.e. just the geo-thermal system, not the rest of the floor-based water heating etc.

But it is cheap and maintenance free to a large degree. In the heatpump solution, you need to change the filter every three months or so (well, I do it) and it cost about 40e for a 20 piece pack.
hellofelicia wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:40 pm
How are you gonna deal with tenants' requests (for which you're legally liable) while you're away?
Other things such as maintenance, if this is an apartment, the caretaker (isännöitsijä) will handle it, including e.g. plumbing or electricity failures etc. Other things like home improvement painting etc. is a hassle but can be handled by emails etc. BUT it will require near native language skills to deal with a handyman. However, there are options, e.g. there are firms to whom you can sublet the apartment and they take care of all this for a percentage.

ozil-madrid
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by ozil-madrid » Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:20 pm

btw, are brick homes always better to buy compared to ones made of wood or what are the thoughts on that ? which of them is least susceptible to mold?

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:38 am

ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:20 pm
btw, are brick homes always better to buy compared to ones made of wood or what are the thoughts on that ? which of them is least susceptible to mold?
Wood is more susceptible to elements, and needs more upkeep, but nothing is impervious to poorly done construction or renovation, or lack of proper maintenance. All houses are individuals, one may have preferences due to different materials' inherent qualities, but one can't determine a house's condition by materials alone.

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network_engineer
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by network_engineer » Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:20 pm

ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:20 pm
btw, are brick homes always better to buy compared to ones made of wood or what are the thoughts on that ? which of them is least susceptible to mold?
I personally like brick homes PROVIDED they are built correctly.

My own opinion is that brick as a material is rather unfamiliar to the local construction, hence there is always a risk of mould and the growth of the bacteria (mikrobikasvustoa). Depending on how deep this has spread, it could be a major issue! Particularly if the construction is done against the bare ground, water can seep in (capillary motion) and will cost a LOT!
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:38 am
Wood is more susceptible to elements, and needs more upkeep, but nothing is impervious to poorly done construction or renovation, or lack of proper maintenance. All houses are individuals, one may have preferences due to different materials' inherent qualities, but one can't determine a house's condition by materials alone.
The red text is a 100% accurate. Wooden houses may be easier to renovate or make changes, the quality of the material and the workmanship matters.

hellofelicia
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by hellofelicia » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:23 am

network_engineer wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:23 am
hellofelicia wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:40 pm
How are you gonna deal with tenants' requests (for which you're legally liable) while you're away?
Other things such as maintenance, if this is an apartment, the caretaker (isännöitsijä) will handle it, including e.g. plumbing or electricity failures etc. Other things like home improvement painting etc. is a hassle but can be handled by emails etc. BUT it will require near native language skills to deal with a handyman. However, there are options, e.g. there are firms to whom you can sublet the apartment and they take care of all this for a percentage.
Yes, my point is that being a landlord is not as simple as "I find a tenant who pays my mortgage and kick them out when I need the place for myself". It's an endeavor that has costs and risks like any other job/entrepreneurship, not a money conveyor belt like some seem to think.

ozil-madrid
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by ozil-madrid » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:03 pm

Would you folks recommend going for wooden homes then? Are there a lot of people with bricks home that have mold ? How to find out before buying if the bricks home might be problematic ?

on a side note, how is everyone feeling with the dark autumn :lol:
network_engineer wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:20 pm
ozil-madrid wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:20 pm
btw, are brick homes always better to buy compared to ones made of wood or what are the thoughts on that ? which of them is least susceptible to mold?
I personally like brick homes PROVIDED they are built correctly.

My own opinion is that brick as a material is rather unfamiliar to the local construction, hence there is always a risk of mould and the growth of the bacteria (mikrobikasvustoa). Depending on how deep this has spread, it could be a major issue! Particularly if the construction is done against the bare ground, water can seep in (capillary motion) and will cost a LOT!
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:38 am
Wood is more susceptible to elements, and needs more upkeep, but nothing is impervious to poorly done construction or renovation, or lack of proper maintenance. All houses are individuals, one may have preferences due to different materials' inherent qualities, but one can't determine a house's condition by materials alone.
The red text is a 100% accurate. Wooden houses may be easier to renovate or make changes, the quality of the material and the workmanship matters.

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agroot
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by agroot » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:16 pm

ozil-madrid wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:03 pm
Would you folks recommend going for wooden homes then? Are there a lot of people with bricks home that have mold ? How to find out before buying if the bricks home might be problematic ?
I wouldn't choose any owner-occupied house. Would it be lovely? sure. Would I clean snow every winter and spend half of free time in home maintenance? nope.
ozil-madrid wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:03 pm
on a side note, how is everyone feeling with the dark autumn :lol:
absolutely depressing. will stay elsewhere next autumn.

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:46 am

ozil-madrid wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:03 pm
Would you folks recommend going for wooden homes then? Are there a lot of people with bricks home that have mold ? How to find out before buying if the bricks home might be problematic ?
One common practice is to have a condition inspection made https://www.kkv.fi/en/consumer-affairs/ ... nspection/ , which should reveal at least obvious flaws in the construction and imminent repair needs. (there's more information behind the link, so I suggest you read it)

It's not unlike buying a used car; unless you have the expertise to determine the car's condition, have someone qualified to take a look at it before buying it.

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network_engineer
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by network_engineer » Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:30 pm

One common practice is to have a condition inspection made https://www.kkv.fi/en/consumer-affairs/ ... nspection/ , which should reveal at least obvious flaws in the construction and imminent repair needs. (there's more information behind the link, so I suggest you read it)

It's not unlike buying a used car; unless you have the expertise to determine the car's condition, have someone qualified to take a look at it before buying it.
Yes, this is good advice; however, I would still say WATCH OUT!!!

Just remember that these inspections are basically a series of checklists, directly related to the condition of the structure and factors that can affect the structure and thereby the living, e.g. mould, dampness, drainage, and that it has been built to a certain standard etc.

As I had mentioned earlier, we got massively cheated. I.e. during the home inspection and the sale, the seller kept mentioning the new heatpump, the heat air exchanger etc, the tulikivi fireplace etc. And *only* these were mentioned in the brochure as well.

The upper floor was fully electrically heated using direct electric heaters. And the radiators looked identical to a circulation based heaters.

It was after we moved in that we were wondering why upstairs was so cold that we went to check if the water was flowing through the radiator and if it was warm where we discovered it was a electric heater plugged into a socket behind the heater (thereby hiding the socket, wires and any indication that it was electric).

Cost to extend the circulation based heating? ~20k to ~30.000e.

And then there was the exterior, the terrace was built very poor, in fact we wanted to get glazing done, the company refused to install it saying the terrace was so poorly done that it was like a trampoline and that the frame work move and the glasses would break. Cost to uproot and repair: About 5-6k, including new wood.

At the unintentional risk of generalising, there is cheating - massive scale.

The difference? There is cheating in other countries too, including ones that are famed for this except that:
  • The buyer knows the seller will try to cheat.
  • The seller knows the buyer knows the seller will try to cheat.
  • The buyer knows that the seller knows that they buyer knows that the seller is trying to cheat.
:twisted:
= Fair game.

Here, the dishonesty mired in pinnacles of honest characteristics and reputations, happiest c.u.n.t.r.y. (ignorance is bliss)...

In our case, the fact that the upstairs was purely electric was not a question of the condition of the house. And so was the terrace, since it is an outdoor structure. So, things to watch out for?

- fresh and almost new floors
- new wallpapers
- fully painted tiles (easy way to make them look new)
- newly painted kitchen cupboards

riku2
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Re: Buy a home or not ?

Post by riku2 » Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:04 pm

agroot wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:16 pm
Would I clean snow every winter and spend half of free time in home maintenance? nope.
You can pay somebody to do the snow work. I live 700m from the main road and the shared part of the 700m road is maintained by a road co-operative that the neighbours and me are part of. I could pay a bit more and have my driveway (30m) ploughed as well but I prefer to do it myself.
Sometimes one of the neighbours does my driveway anyway with his tractor free of charge - in the countryside about half the neighbours seem to have tractors!


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