Live/sleep in a car? :) In Helsinki!! During winter!!?

[Ha-Nguyen]

Hello buddies! Would love & appreciate hearing your thoughts/ advice/ objections/ critics/ warnings about this crazy idea I've contemplating. As the subject reveals, it's about
1. having no fixed housing (legal address registered = friend's house)
2. owning minimal belongings
3. "living"/ sleeping + traveling out of/ with a car instead.
Living in quotation marks because there is an option to spend daytime in 1000 places (including offices) and the car mainly for sleeping. I do some research and thinking and compile a list of pros & cons. But still would be nice to hear from others, this way I can expand my limited knowledge, imagination & blindspots. A good explanation of this lifestyle can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4i1FpcGzvU.

The motivations for me are
1. Instead of paying rent every month without having the property at the end, I hopefully can pay for a second-hand electric car (EV) and own it after some years.
2. The car can take me places, but the room can't.
3. In case of unused (traveling) -> I lost money paying rent (or luckily finding someone who needs a space just that period, if I can sub rent it). While I earn money renting the car (if I can rent it out during the installment period, I think I can, light entrepreneurship or via a third-party app, or ask a friend to use it for free with at least no cost for me).

Paljon kiitoksia!
Hà

[FinlandGirl]

Hello buddies! Would love & appreciate hearing your thoughts/ advice/ objections/ critics/ warnings about this crazy idea I've contemplating. As the subject reveals, it's about
1. having no fixed housing (legal address registered = friend's house)
2. owning minimal belongings
3. "living"/ sleeping + traveling out of/ with a car instead.
Living in quotation marks because there is an option to spend daytime in 1000 places (including offices) and the car mainly for sleeping. I do some research and thinking and compile a list of pros & cons. But still would be nice to hear from others, this way I can expand my limited knowledge, imagination & blindspots.

The motivations for me are
1. Instead of paying rent every month without having the property at the end, I hopefully can pay for a second-hand electric car (EV) and own it after some years.

What are your calculations regarding the costs for buying/driving/heating/insurance/repairs?
Does that actually save you money?

For living you need a van with a bed, a stove and a toilet.

Where will you park the van?
Where will you empty the toilet?
Where will you take a shower?

If money is such a worry for you, I doubt an EV would be a good choice.
Do second-hand electric camper vans even exist, and if yes what do they cost?

A car that was bought second-hand and got even older afterwards is not worth much, usually a car gets scrapped when the next repair would be more expensive than the value of the car after the repair.

[Ha-Nguyen]

Thanks a lot for all the insights, FinlandGirl!

What are your calculations regarding the costs for buying/driving/heating/insurance/repairs? Does that actually save you money?

There are a lot of hidden/ unexpected costs. The car itself has an annual tax. And you mentioned what I dread the most "repair" I don't know anything about car (yet). It will also cost me to get the license in Finland because the last seven years in Helsinki I'm good with public transport. I'm researching to finalize my calculation. Lots of work!

For living you need a van with a bed, a stove, and a toilet.

Since the van requires more work. I plan to start with a car - not a van. And improvise something comfy enough out of the back seat for "bed". Good sleep is important for the whole day's quality so I also don't wanna risk this. But haha I have been sleeping in comfy warm beds and still have insomnia + tiredness. So maybe the peace of mind of living the way I really want will be the more important factor. Daytime I plan to spend in the office, libraries, parks (summer), gym, cafe, etc. And yeah, I will do the toilet + shower (+ sauna) there. Parking I'm looking at different options. Renting or applying for a residential parking space (my friend's address) might do. But I see one public parking hall mentioned this in their T&C that unauthorized stay is prohibited

If money is such a worry for you, I doubt an EV would be a good choice. Do second-hand electric camper vans even exist, and if yes what do they cost?

Money is not currently a worry for me, luckily. I have a stable remote job and stable income that I can afford normal rent. My worry is if the money is well spent or not. The car I was looking at is this, installment will be ~half of the monthly standard rent. https://www.kamux.fi/cars/Volkswagen/up!/EUC-973

A car that was bought second-hand and got even older afterward is not worth much, usually, a car gets scrapped when the next repair would be more expensive than the value of the car after the repair.

Not sure if I understand this well. But yes I'm aware of the value drop in the used cars (but might be nothing compared to new car) & it's a gamble if I will get a decent deal, or if something needs fixing every other month..

[FinlandGirl]

What are your calculations regarding the costs for buying/driving/heating/insurance/repairs? Does that actually save you money?

There are a lot of hidden/ unexpected costs. The car itself has an annual tax. And you mentioned what I dread the most "repair" I don't know anything about car (yet). It will also cost me to get the license in Finland because the last seven years in Helsinki I'm good with public transport. I'm researching to finalize my calculation. Lots of work!

For living you need a van with a bed, a stove, and a toilet.

Since the van requires more work. I plan to start with a car - not a van. And improvise something comfy enough out of the back seat for "bed". Good sleep is important for the whole day's quality so I also don't wanna risk this. But haha I have been sleeping in comfy warm beds and still have insomnia + tiredness. So maybe the peace of mind of living the way I really want will be the more important factor. Daytime I plan to spend in the office, libraries, parks (summer), gym, cafe, etc. And yeah, I will do the toilet + shower (+ sauna) there. Parking I'm looking at different options. Renting or applying for a residential parking space (my friend's address) might do. But I see one public parking hall mentioned this in their T&C that unauthorized stay is prohibited

If money is such a worry for you, I doubt an EV would be a good choice. Do second-hand electric camper vans even exist, and if yes what do they cost?

Money is not currently a worry for me, luckily. I have a stable remote job and stable income that I can afford normal rent. My worry is if the money is well spent or not.

You are just being stupid when you are planning to live on the back-seat of a car despite being able to afford a normal rent.

Cooking cheap food instead of wasting money in restaurants and cafes, or not living in the most expensive town in the country, these would be sane options if you want to save money.

[kalaizanala]

Instead of living in a car you can try to move to Riihimäki or some other small town near Helsinki. It is possible to find a flat there less than 500 euro per month. And you can buy a season-ticket for commuter train to move to Helsinki in half an hour and whenever you want to.
I don't think that car living is profitable if it will cost you more that 300 euro per month (for petrol, taxes, insurances, parking place, etc)

[ajdias]

There's a min series in YLE about a couple who moved into a van with their dog for 2 or 3 years - should be still in areena, called "Van life" see https://areena.yle.fi/1-61882614 . They spent their winters elsewhere, in the south, where winters are mild, while working remotely. They had their van adapted by a mechanic, himself a enthusiast, from eastern helsinki, and knowing finns that guy is prob now booked for the foreseable future. Didn't really dig into it but there were others doing it, iirc a couple living and working from a small truck.
I am sure if you look around you'll find foruns and subs for enthusiasts, they'll tell you about their experiences, necesseties and what to expect from different vehicles. My guess is that a van or camper, which allows you to cook, work and sleep would save you money and afford you access to more places, as compared to a car with a bed, but YMMV.

[Y77]

Go to Oodi library, use the toilets there and wash yourself there and have a nap on the comfy sofas during the day. In the night go to a subway open 24 hrs, order a sandwich and sleep there. This is what the bulgarian gipsies have been doing for many years quite succesfully, no need for a van or a flat of Schuldgefühle.

[deepsudeep]

checkout vantastic on youtube. They have a campervan though

[Piet]

Talking about one of the countries I lived in, (The Netherlands) I remember that it is forbidden to sleep the night in a car / caravan, van and camper, on public road and in residential areas, you will get a ticket when doing so and forced to move on immediately when ticketed.
Sleeping in a car is only allowed on a camping or designated truck / parking places outside of the city limits.

I came to wonder if similar laws / rules / regulations apply in for example the greater Helsinki area, or all city limits in Finland as well.

I would like to know too because I am considering the purchase of a camper and move around Finland visiting all old friends (from Porvoo to Tornio and a little higher..) this summer.

[Ha-Nguyen]

Hi all thanks a lot for all your input!! Was away for a while from the forum! Not yet car life or van life BUT still thinking about it. Will update here once it a reality My plan got modified since I met a guy who has a house and a dog and thinking my idea of living in a car in Finland was NUTS. For now we are still happy here in Espoo (I pay rent to him 300e to help with his home payment still). The reason for 300 is because I am a student and eligible for HOAS apartment so we think it's a fair price.

[agroot]

Where would you hang winter clothes, wash and dry them? Most camping cars are tiny.

Are you planning to cook outside? Or visit restaurants 3 times a day? The cost could be higher than rent.

[LarryLion]

i introduce you to Parkkipate. the assholes of Finland.

[VinylHog]

I looked into this way of living many years ago, mainly from the angle that being stuck in one place is very limiting and weighs you down, plus it forces you to live in predefined ways, along with 98% of the population, who are all conditioned and stuck in living almost autopilot lives.

After reading many people's accounts and experiences of this way of living and watching lots of videos, I came to these conclusions.

1. Mobile living (car, van, camper van, truck, etc) is mostly done by young people (under 30) and people 55+. This is probably due to not having much possessions or having got rid of them later in life. Very few people in between these age groups live like this, primarily because many people seek relationships and a family, which are mostly done between these age groups, more or less.

2. You have to be a "hardy" person. Thus means you can't be sensitive, or easily pissed off, or be particular. You also need to be "thick skinned", and not bothered much by noise. This is because there are all kinds of things that you will probably encounter living outside of the approved manner and which people who live in homes never experience or are even aware of.

3. Cold climates do not suit such a lifestyle, as heating yourself becomes a key priority in cold climates and vehicles are not designed to be insulated from cold, or from noise - when it rains and you are sleeping in a car/van, etc., the sound of the rain hitting the metal roof of your vehicle could keep you awake.

4. Getting up during the night to pee or poop will become a major problem if you are in a vehicle and a car just won't work. This might not be a problem right now but may become one in the future. In addition, the lack of a handy toilet, which we are all used to in homes, work, stores and public buildings, will be absent with this kind of living, so no more going to the toilet when you need/want to. You can have a makeshift toilet with a toilet seat balanced on top of a large bucket/drum, to which you can add sawdust to mask the smells. Holding on to urine in bottles, for example, is surprisingly stinker than poop.

5. What if someone tries to break into your vehicle while you are sleeping in it?

6. What if people nearby are having some party or causing boisterous behaviour because of alcohol, talking loudly, shouting, etc, while you are trying to sleep?

7. Police may be called by residents if there is a van they do not recognise that has been parked in the street for days, or if they see someone evidently sleeping in a car or van.

8. Being forced to move before you want to, will add to your costs, which can make savings in rent evaporate. Costly vehicle repairs will do the same, as well as putting you out of action for days at a time, with the extra costs for hotel/hostel/etc., removing the savings that you sought to make. Your vehicle possessions could be at risk too while its being repaired - how could you prove something was stolen?

9. Such a lifestyle doesn't lend itself to nice/enjoyable/healthy foods and eating and you may find yourself buying ready made food from take-aways, restaurants or petrol stations, etc., all of which add to your costs and affect your health.

10. Not being able to stand up in a vehicle will soon grate on you and you may come to resent this way of living.

11. You will probably need to be comfortable with doing all kinds of repairs, by yourself, such as electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and others.

12. How will you wash plates and cutlery or will you eat with plastic/paper versions and throw them away or eat with your hands?

13. Cooking inside a vehicle will create smells you don't want to smell after you've eaten and especially when you are trying to sleep.

I could go on...

Many people who live like this, live in the USA, where there are more choices available, such as cheap memberships to fitness clubs that are open 24/7 which they use for showering and government owned land which can be parked on for as long as tou want. There are also 24 hour stores like Walmart in some towns and cities, so you can justify being in their parking lot overnight and not be disturbed by staff or the police.

Finally, I realised that everything in modern life has been setup for people to live in a particular way and only ONE particular way. And that as a consequence, anything outside of that way is either against some law, or made so unattractive that few people can do it, without considerable effort and discomfort and often, higher costs.

[LeneBR]

Gosh, you sound like a complicated person. That sounds really boring, sorry.

I was living in a campsite for a while in Finland, it was amazing and saved a lot of money. I just left because we split and I cannot drive myself, lol. FOR SURE, I will take my driver's license and get back to the freedom/ lifestyle, hope in 2 years as I need to build a van for my own taste.

I looked into this way of living many years ago, mainly from the angle that being stuck in one place is very limiting and weighs you down, plus it forces you to live in predefined ways, along with 98% of the population, who are all conditioned and stuck in living almost autopilot lives.

After reading many people's accounts and experiences of this way of living and watching lots of videos, I came to these conclusions.

1. Mobile living (car, van, camper van, truck, etc) is mostly done by young people (under 30) and people 55+. This is probably due to not having many possessions or having got rid of them later in life. Very few people in between these age groups live like this, primarily because many people seek relationships and a family, which are mostly done between these age groups, more or less.

2. You have to be a "hardy" person. Thus means you can't be sensitive, or easily pissed off, or be particular. You also need to be "thick skinned", and not bothered much by noise. This is because there are all kinds of things that you will probably encounter living outside of the approved manner, and which people who live in homes never experience or are even aware of.

3. Cold climates do not suit such a lifestyle, as heating yourself becomes a key priority in cold climates and vehicles are not designed to be insulated from cold, or from noise - when it rains and you are sleeping in a car/van, etc., the sound of the rain hitting the metal roof of your vehicle could keep you awake.

4. Getting up during the night to pee or poop will become a major problem if you are in a vehicle and a car just won't work. This might not be a problem right now but may become one in the future. In addition, the lack of a handy toilet, which we are all used to in homes, work, stores and public buildings, will be absent with this kind of living, so no more going to the toilet when you need/want to. You can have a makeshift toilet with a toilet seat balanced on top of a large bucket/drum, to which you can add sawdust to mask the smells. Holding on to urine in bottles, for example, is surprisingly stinker than poop.

5. What if someone tries to break into your vehicle while you are sleeping in it?

6. What if people nearby are having some party or causing boisterous behaviour because of alcohol, talking loudly, shouting, etc, while you are trying to sleep?

7. Police may be called by residents if there is a van they do not recognise that has been parked in the street for days, or if they see someone evidently sleeping in a car or van.

8. Being forced to move before you want to, will add to your costs, which can make savings in rent evaporate. Costly vehicle repairs will do the same, as well as putting you out of action for days at a time, with the extra costs for hotel/hostel/etc., removing the savings that you sought to make. Your vehicle possessions could be at risk too while its being repaired - how could you prove something was stolen?

9. Such a lifestyle doesn't lend itself to nice/enjoyable/healthy foods and eating and you may find yourself buying ready made food from take-aways, restaurants or petrol stations, etc., all of which add to your costs and affect your health.

10. Not being able to stand up in a vehicle will soon grate on you and you may come to resent this way of living.

11. You will probably need to be comfortable with doing all kinds of repairs, by yourself, such as electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and others.

12. How will you wash plates and cutlery or will you eat with plastic/paper versions and throw them away or eat with your hands?

13. Cooking inside a vehicle will create smells you don't want to smell after you've eaten and especially when you are trying to sleep.

I could go on...

Many people who live like this, live in the USA, where there are more choices available, such as cheap memberships to fitness clubs that are open 24/7 which they use for showering and government owned land which can be parked on for as long as tou want. There are also 24 hour stores like Walmart in some towns and cities, so you can justify being in their parking lot overnight and not be disturbed by staff or the police.

Finally, I realised that everything in modern life has been setup for people to live in a particular way and only ONE particular way. And that as a consequence, anything outside of that way is either against some law, or made so unattractive that few people can do it, without considerable effort and discomfort and often, higher costs.

[joepublic]

I’d understand if you wanted to do this for an adventure and I’d encourage something like that always, but to do it to save money when you are already doing fine financially screams of one thing only - you are cheap. Sorry to say this, but you need to hear it. I’m sure a lot of people say this about you behind your back.