Moving to Joensuu

[phormion]

Well, as we have the "Greek Catholic Church" here, known as "Orthodox"

No way, dude. The Orthodox Church is made of autokefalic churches (as you said), only formally ruled by the patriarch of Constantinoples, while the "Greek Catholic" Church is actually a former part of the Orthodox Church that decided to acknowledge the leadership of the Pope, so it's closer to, well, Rome. They keep some of the Orthodox customs, though, but they're part of the Catholic Church.

At least that's how it is in Romania, Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe, I somehow doubt that Finns have decided to use different names just for the fun of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_catholic

[Hank W.]

[
No way, dude. The Orthodox Church is made of autokefalic churches (as you said), only formally ruled by the patriarch of Constantinoples, while the "Greek Catholic" Church is actually a former part of the Orthodox Church that decided to acknowledge the leadership of the Pope,

Errr, I went to school in 1970 when that was called "Roman Rite Orthodox". Why can't people keep one word for one thing damnit

In the 1922 "Freedom of Religion Act" it says of State Churches:

2§

Uskonnollisina yhdyskuntina pidetään tässä laissa evankelisluterilaista ja kreikkalaiskatolista kirkkoa, niin myös muita uskontokuntia, joilla on tarkoituksena julkisesti harjoittaa uskontoa ja jotka on asianmukaisesti rekisteröity, niinkuin 2 luvussa sanotaan.

The reason why I'd think they said say "Greek Catholic" here is because saying "Russian Orthodox" would have been... errr... very bad publicity with the independence and all... See now the stuff they sell as "Ensalata Russa" everywhere else is "Italian Salad" here... It was a 1920's "freedom fries" thing - we're not the only place in the world where theres certain creative naming been happening.

It seems the term has been deemed "archaic usage" now streamlining it with international usage and now they just talk about Orthodox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Orthodox_Church
Finnish Orthodox Church
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The Finnish Orthodox Church is the second official national church of Finland, beside the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. Eastern Orthodox Christianity was introduced to Finland during Russian rule in the 19th century. In Helsinki, Viipuri and Karelian Isthmus, Orthodoxy was associated with the country's ruling elite, however many rural Finns, Sami and Karelians were also members of the Orthodox Church.

Shortly after Finland declared independence from Russia in 1917, the Finnish Orthodox Church declared its autonomy from the Russian Orthodox Church. In 1923, the Finnish Church completely separated from the Russian Church, becoming an autonomous part of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. The Gregorian Calendar was also adopted. Other reforms introduced after independence include changing the language of the divine liturgy from Church Slavonic to Finnish and the transfer of the Archepiscopal seat from the multicultural (Finnish, Swedish, Karelian, Russian and German speaking, having also biggest Jewish community) city of Viipuri to the Finnish speaking city of Sortavala.

Until World War II, the majority of the Orthodox Christians in Finland were in Karelia. As a consequence of the war, many residents of that border province evacuated to other parts of the country. The monastery of Valamo was evacuated in 1940 and the monastery of New Valamo was founded in 1941 at Heinävesi. Later, the monks from Konevitsa and Petsamo monasteries also joined the New Valamo monastery. The nunnery of Lintula at Kivennapa (Karelian Isthmus) was also evacuated, and re-established at Heinävesi in 1946. A new parish network was established, and many new churches were built in the 1950s. After the city of Viipuri was lost to the Soviet Union, its Diocesan seat was moved to Helsinki. A third Diocese was established at Oulu in 1979.

To this day, Orthodoxy is practiced mostly by Russians, Karelians and the Sami (Koltta Tribe), although it has shed the image of the privileged class it was once associated with. The Orthodox Christian Church has about 60,000 members. In recent decades, the membership has been steadily growing.

Its current primate is His Eminence Leo, Archbishop of Karelia and All Finland.

And some pictures:
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/ ... 25813#hist

[Mark I.]

No way, dude. The Orthodox Church is made of autokefalic churches (as you said), only formally ruled by the patriarch of Constantinoples, while the "Greek Catholic" Church is actually a former part of the Orthodox Church that decided to acknowledge the leadership of the Pope, so it's closer to, well, Rome. They keep some of the Orthodox customs, though, but they're part of the Catholic Church.

No offence meant here, but that just reminded me of one movie:

http://www.geocities.com/pythoninsanity ... Brian.html


"
Scene 7


[trumpets]


[clap clap clap]


ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen. The next contest is between... Frank Goliath, the Macedonian baby-crusher, and Boris Mineburg.

BRIAN: Want some...

VOICE: Thank you, fellows.

BRIAN: Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar. Tuscany fried bats.

JUDITH: I do feel, Reg, that any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must reflect such a divergence of interests within its power-base.

REG: Agreed. Francis?

FRANCIS: Yeah. I think Judith's point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man--

STAN: Or woman.

FRANCIS: Or woman... to rid himself--

STAN: Or herself.

FRANCIS: Or herself.

REG: Agreed.

FRANCIS: Thank you, brother.

STAN: Or sister.

FRANCIS: Or sister. Where was I?

REG: I think you'd finished.

FRANCIS: Oh. Right.

REG: Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man--

STAN: Or woman.

REG: Why don't you shut up about women, Stan. You're putting us off.

STAN: Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.

FRANCIS: Why are you always on about women, Stan?

STAN: I want to be one.

REG: What?

STAN: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.

REG: What?!

LORETTA: It's my right as a man.

JUDITH: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?

LORETTA: I want to have babies.

REG: You want to have babies?!

LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

REG: But... you can't have babies.

LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.

REG: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! -- Where's the fetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!

LORETTA: [crying]

JUDITH: Here! I-- I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.

FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.

REG: What's the point?

FRANCIS: What?

REG: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?!

FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.

REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.

[trumpets]

[clap clap clap]

GUARD: Get out there.

BORIS: It's, um--

GUARD: Get out there.

BORIS: It's dangerous out there. Ah ah. Ah! Oh.

[clap clap clap]

[clank]

BORIS: Ooh.

CROWD: Aaah. Ohh...

SPECTATOR: What a load of rubbish.

BRIAN: Larks' tongues. Otters' noses. Ocelot spleens.

REG: Got any nuts?

BRIAN: I haven't got any nuts. Sorry. I've got wrens' livers, badgers' spleens--

REG: No, no, no.

BRIAN: Otters' noses?

REG: I don't want any of that Roman rubbish.

JUDITH: Why don't you sell proper food?

BRIAN: Proper food?

REG: Yeah, not those rich imperialist tit-bits.

BRIAN: Well, don't blame me. I didn't ask to sell this stuff.

REG: All right. Bag of otters' noses, then.

FRANCIS: Make it two.

REG: Two.

FRANCIS: Thanks, Reg.

BRIAN: Are you the Judean People's Front?

REG: @#$% off!

BRIAN: What?

REG: Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.

FRANCIS: Wankers.

BRIAN: Can I... join your group?

REG: No. Piss off.

BRIAN: I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.

PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.

REG: Stumm.

JUDITH: Are you sure?

BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.

REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.

BRIAN: I do!

REG: Oh, yeah? How much?

BRIAN: A lot!

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the @#$% Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

GOLIATH: [pant pant pant] Ooh. Ooh. I-- I think I'm about to have a... cardiac arrest. Ooh. Ooh.

SPECTATOR: Absolutely dreadful. Hmm.

CROWD: [cheering]

REG: Yes, brother! Ha ha. What's your name?

BRIAN: Brian. Brian Cohen.

REG: We may have a little job for you, Brian. "

[sammy]

Yikes,

this is developing into a theological debate sooner than you could say "antidisestablishmentarianism"!

As I seem to have started it all, I may as well confess that I've never really given thought on whether the term "Russian Orthodox" would be an ecclesiastically accepted one; I've casually used it myself when referring to the, perhaps I should say, Finnish Orthodox Church in English-language discussions, just to get across the general idea of how much of the whole local Orthodox tradition has been affected by the Russian side of the Orthodox church (just think of Valamo etc...) - it's always seemed to me a decent thing to do, also given the decidedly "eastern" architecture of our Orthodox churches.

Just look at the one in Tampere for example. Staggering home from the nearby Irish pub late at night, one might easily be excused (on setting your weary eyes on the St Alexander Nevsky and Nicholaus church) thinking that you've accidentally walked WAY too much east...



But, I stand corrected - peccavi - get the torches ready

[Hank W.]

Well it was a 1920's thing the naming issue - no need for torches unless you mention the War

[baris]

Sorry to intervene your divine and precious religious topic guys but I have something to say about salads at this point.

See now the stuff they sell as "Ensalata Russa" everywhere else is "Italian Salad" here... It was a 1920's "freedom fries" thing - we're not the only place in the world where theres certain creative naming been happening.

Now that we have this "American Salad" in Turkey which seems to be the "Russian Salad" originally. People think that this naming fiasco was because of the anti-communist mentality. Also, according to not so reliable sources, "Russian Salad" is called "French Salad" in Russia. Anyone to resolve this salad issue?

Also one thing I noticed is that, our lovely city Istanbul seems to be called Constantinople in religious context still. You know the song called "Istanbul not Constantinople" of "They Might Be Giants", right? As the songs say, it's really nobody's business but Turks .

[sammy]

Now that we have this "American Salad" in Turkey which seems to be the "Russian Salad" originally. People think that this naming fiasco was because of the anti-communist mentality. Also, according to not so reliable sources, "Russian Salad" is called "French Salad" in Russia. Anyone to resolve this salad issue?

This reminds me of an old Asterix cartoon, where Ostrogoths are Goths from the East whereas Visigoths are Goths from the West - but from the point of view of the Gauls, Visigoths are also from the East...

I don't have the mental powers at this time of day to crack the Salad Code, though

[phormion]

Well, Hank, they could have used "Finnish Orthodox", or I don't know, "Greek Orthodox", it's quite funny that they wanted to distance themselves so much from Russia that they resorted to this kind of artifice .

I read about the Finnish Orthodox Church, I know the presentation page on the Virtual Finland site. By the way, I come from a mostly Orthodox country.

I just said that it didn't sound like it was a "Greek Catholic" Church in the widely accepted meaning that I knew - that is, parts of the Orthodox Church that have "reconciled" themselves with Rome. At least in Transylvania, in the XVIIIth century the austrians were being quite intolerant towards other religions besides catholicism, and the Greek Catholic Church was some sort of compromise they proposed to the Romanians, who were mostly of orthodox faith at that time. Greek catholics were badly oppressed during communism, most of their churches were given to the Orthodox Church by the authorities, and a few years ago the issue of the confiscated churches caused quite a bit of trouble between the two rites.

There's a similar church in Ukraine (http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/), who was also partly under Austrian rule, Slovakia (http://www.iarelative.com/demetri.htm), and I don't remember if there weren't some of them in Russia.

But anyway, I guess we're way offtopic.

MHH, no offence taken, but your point is?

[Mark I.]

phormion, Life of Brian (have you seen it?) makes IMO brilliant play about religion and politics, that usually are regarded as beyond humour. I find that angle hilarious.

I'm a splitter of this thread, I suppose.

That was OT, carry on.

[phormion]

MHH, I know "Life of Brian". However, we were talking about the naming of the Finnish Orthodox Church, not religion (yet ). And the other remark was that there are other parts in the movie that take on religion more directly - when Brian's chased by his admirers, or when he goes to hear Jesus's sermon on the mountain, for example. But anyway, I guess if the admin is nice enough, he can split this thread in the old one about Joensuu and another one called "Man, what's that Finnish Orthodox Church called after all??".