My situation

[Hank W.]

IIRC the poster is living in Oulu which is not necessarily representative of Finland in general. If you are moving to the capital area then things are quite different..

I'd say "applies to Finland beyond the capital area in general". In other words - don't move to small towns if you don't want to face a small-town reality.

[Däni]

Hank W. - When I said that education is free, I should have added that it is free for the studyer. I recognise that taxes are rather high in Finland, one reason being to support people studying.

watsonwatson - I believe your circumstances are unique, and I doubt that most people are as successful as you.

If it is true that a Finnish Masters degree is about the same level as a HND, then surely my qualification would be worth more. But in fact, it is seen to be worth less. How is that?

I agree that the best plan of action would be to find a job before moving to Finland. I also agree that it would be so much easier for both of us if my partner moved over here. That is something we are discussing as part of our long-term plans.

The comment "All I've ever had from Finns is the question, "So, what do you think about Finland?"" is so true. I haven't been in the country as much as a lot of people here, but I certainly do recognise that question!

penelope - Thanks once again for your time. My only concern about the "upkeep" English teaching is that there must be many people that try for the job, and only a small number who actually get it. I recognise that English teaching is probably the most common job foreigners try to get in Finland, which by the law of averages means I don't have such a big chance of getting one.

[Rosamunda]

The "Upkeep" programme is running all over the country so it will depend on where you live... the main problem is that the number of hours offered is very limited. I only had 8h a week. But it is a start and it is quite usual for people up here to have several "small" jobs going at the same time.

It is easy to find jobs teaching English in the adult sector. There are many schools in Helsinki and they are always looking for teachers. If you do a search on this site you will find a list of language schools.... the conditions are not excellent and the pay isnät brilliant once you add in preparation time and travel but it would be a good way of supplementing your income from another job. It is very flexible.

[Timbeh]

Children with learning disabilities have lessons with an Erityisopettaja who is a highly qualified "special" teacher (usually educational psychologist).

Those are called "erityisopettaja" (special education teacher) and they are not psychologists. They are teachers who have concentrated on working with children who have different kinds of disabilities. Child psychologists or educational psychologists are psychologists who have specialized in developmental psychology and they are working for the healthcare services, like you say, shared by two or more schools in an area. AFAIK special ed. teachers usually work in one school.

[watsonwatson]

The jobs market here is pretty much closed to foreign competitors (immigrants) apart from 3 micro niches

1. Teaching an academic subject in English However, most lukios are very reluctant to hire foreigners. For example, the highly regarded Ressu in Helsinki doesn't employ a single one! So in that sense it could be argued that the authorities in Oulu are MORE broad minded than those doing the same work in Helsinki
2. Freelance TEFL
3. Nokia techie nerds

Trust your instincts. Well done for noticing the "What do you think of Finland" (non) question.

The fact is that the unemployment rate for foreigners is nudging 30% (the real figure is much higher than 30%, once those sent on Finnish courses by KELA are taken into account). The unemployment rate for Finns is only 8%. Draw your own conclusions and beware!

I visit Helsinki fairly regularly to visit the "outlaws". The situation there is not much different from Oulu. In comparison with elsewhere in Europe there are very few foreigners in residence (this is a statistical fact) and this DOES make life more difficult for foreigners who do live there compared to other European cities with a more liberal tolerant approach towards differences.

In Finland conformity rules. The Finns love a consensus. Individualism is frowned upon in Finland. That can be a bit wearing after a while, I've found my experience here suffocating at times. I'm looking forward to returning to London. I miss the freedom and diversity. Talk too loudly in a supermarket in Helsinki, or anywhere else in Finland, and be prepared to be stared at.

[Timbeh]

The biggest joke is a Finnish "Masters degree", which is really about HND Level.

That is utter nonsense. HND takes about two years to complete while masters degree is at least five years (although it includes the "candidates degree", which is three years out of the five).

[watsonwatson]

But that's the problem. You can call a programme of study whatever you want!

For example, here in Finland an IBO Diploma course in Business and Management forms the backbone of a course that is called a "Bachelor's degree" at the local educational establishment. The IBO Diploma is about A Level standard. Overnight the UK Government could, if it wanted to, re-brand A Levels as Bachelor's degrees.

Duration of study is not an indicator of depth of study or academic rigour either!

The only real judge is the market. If Finnish Master's degrees were any good we would see

1. A flood of multinationals looking to take advantage of Finland's wonderful workforce.
2. A flood of foreign students wishing to study in Finland (there are plenty of courses available in English these days)

Unfortunately the reality of the situation is bad on two counts

1. Finland has a lamentable record in terms of its ability to attract foreign direct investment. Wages here are relatively low compared to Germany, Britain, France etc. But, that still doesn't stop the industrial exodus from Finland. Another indicator of the true quality of a Finnish "Master's degree"
2. Finland doesn't attract many foreign students despite the fact that its free to study here

[Däni]

penelope - Is there a website or somewhere with more information about this "Upkeep" programme? Also, you mention adult education. I would quite like to teach English to adults, so that would be a good possibility for me.

watsonwatson - I find it a little surprising that many Finnish schools and universities do not employ non-Finns. I would have thought that the quality of education would stale quite quickly if there was nothing new entering the country from outside.

Timbeh - I believe watsonwatson is trying to convey the point that a HND is the equivalent of a Finnish Masters degree in academic level, rather than length of study.

This is somewhat disheartening for me, as my degree is (arguably) worth more than what is considered to be the Finnish "equivalent". Yet it will not be recognised as such.

[Rosamunda]

My experience of primary schools in Finland (and I'm talking state primary schools here - lower comprehensive älä-aste) is that the teachers have an excellent level of training. I have taught in several schools in Espoo and I have always been impressed by what I have seen and heard. I think the Primary School teacher training programme here is of a high standard. Also teachers are respected here... unlike in the UK where teaching does not have much status (as in the proverbial: those who can, do, those who can't, teach). I've read some pretty impressive stats about UK teachers: less than 30% of maths teachers have a degree in maths etc etc.. That would not happen here. Getting on to a teacher training programme in Finland is still competitive whereas, in the UK, the government is resorting to all kinds of schemes to get people back in to teaching (lump sum at the end of a PGCE for example).

And just for the record, all my kids (3) are in state schools in Helsinki/Espoo and I reckon 90% of their teachers are native English speakers. In my youngest's primary school ALL the classroom teachers are native English speakers (5 British, 1 African, 1 Asian), my eldest son is in lower secondary (7th grade) and all his main subjects (English, maths, science) are taught by native English speakers (British, American etc). The IB school in Espoo has several non-Finnish teachers who are teaching in High School (lukio), as does the AICE high school in Tapiola.

penelope - Is there a website or somewhere with more information about this "Upkeep" programme?

These are organised by the local education authorities so you need to look on the website of the town where you want to teach. Eg http://www.helsinki.fi then under education.... find the phone number for the local koulutuskeskus and give them a ring. For general info on education in Finland go to http://www.minedu.fi

[watsonwatson]

My experience of primary schools in Finland (and I'm talking state primary schools here - lower comprehensive älä-aste) is that the teachers have an excellent level of training. I've read some pretty impressive stats about UK teachers: less than 30% of maths teachers have a degree in maths etc etc.. That would not happen here.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Penny, but it DOES happen in Finland, especially in vocational schools where its possible to teach without any qualifications at all! I was quite shocked at how basic the teaching is here. Most of it involves the teacher standing up at the front, whilst the students listen passively. Finnish teachers are not aware of issues like "differentiation" "student learning styles" e.g. visual vs. oral and how teaching could be adapted to suit each students' preferred learning style. Student monitoring and support are virtually non existent where I work. For example, parents do not receive a written report on their child's progress. Schools in Finland don't tend to communicate much with parents. Kids are left to sink or swim. At the last place I worked in England (same 16-19 year-old age group) parents received two written reports per year.

As you and Hank wrote earlier it is possible to get work as a teacher here, but getting paid properly (fairly) is a different issue.

[Timbeh]

I believe watsonwatson is trying to convey the point that a HND is the equivalent of a Finnish Masters degree in academic level, rather than length of study.

I understand what he's trying to say. There's no basis for his argument though. I sincerely doubt that the HND would be equal to finnish master's degree. Finnish universities have rigorious and high-standard, academic teaching. I'm not talking about the vocational or polytechnic schools ("ammattikorkeakoulu" or AMK for short) because they do not offer a masters degree nor anything comparable to it.

[Hank W.]

Re: Foreign students. The applied/accepted ratios aren't "flood" levels, getting into the Helsinki Uni its about 10%

(We're not talking about the boonie polytechnics which seem to be a bit wholesale at times).

An I don't know if "free" is enough to compensate for the tropical climate, cheap prices, excellent job opportunities, easy language and friendly people here in Finland either

[Timbeh]

Here's some basic information about the masters degree in general and particularily in Finland:
- Masters degree
- Masters degree in Finland
- Degree studies in one Finnish university (Jyväskylä)

Some information about basic education and higher education in Finland:
- The Finnish education system
- University education in Finland

[Rosamunda]

My experience of primary schools in Finland (and I'm talking state primary schools here - lower comprehensive älä-aste) is that the teachers have an excellent level of training. I've read some pretty impressive stats about UK teachers: less than 30% of maths teachers have a degree in maths etc etc.. That would not happen here.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Penny, but it DOES happen in Finland, especially in vocational schools where its possible to teach without any qualifications at all! I was quite shocked at how basic the teaching is here. Most of it involves the teacher standing up at the front, whilst the students listen passively. Finnish teachers are not aware of issues like "differentiation" "student learning styles" e.g. visual vs. oral and how teaching could be adapted to suit each students' preferred learning style. Student monitoring and support are virtually non existent where I work. For example, parents do not receive a written report on their child's progress. Schools in Finland don't tend to communicate much with parents. Kids are left to sink or swim. At the last place I worked in England (same 16-19 year-old age group) parents received two written reports per year.
.

I was talking about PRIMARY schools..... and you answer VOCATIONAL schools.... In my experience - IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS - teaching is very interactive and kids develop a wide range of skills. And, as stated above, all PRIMARY schools have special ed teachers intra-muros. All I see my neices and nephews doing in the UK is downloading stuff off the internet (or getting their parents to download stuff off the internet) which they then hand in for a formal written assessment which counts maybe 40% towards their final GCSE grade So much for differentiated learning styles!!! If PISA/OECD proved one thing it is that AVERAGE literacy rates in Finland are very high compared to the rest of Europe and few students do actually "sink" as you put it.

Even at lukio level.... I think a lot can be said for a system that requires students to continue studying core subjects through to 12th grade. The UK system allows students to drop core subjects like English, maths and languages as early as 16 (earlier for languages) so that many universities are now running "prep" programmes for in-coming students who are lacking basic skills eg: written English. The Finnish matric and the IB both require students to continue all core subjects. Another reason why Finland scored high in literacy in the PISA study.

As for school reports..... personally I don't rate them much. I prefer to meet the teachers face to face and discuss. School reports have never been a big thing in our house. Having said that, my children have always had school reports in Finland, twice per year, once at Christmas and once at the end of the school year. My eldest's (7th grade) school report in December was extremely detailed and included notes for effort, attainment, progress and comments. I think the school report requirements are fixed by the LEAs so they may differ from one city to another.

[zam]

Finnish comprehensive schools do have something similar to a teaching assistant. In Finnish they are called either "kouluavustaja" (school assistant) or "koulunkäyntiavustaja" (school-going assistant). The difference is that usually the koulunkäyntiavustaja is assigned to one pupil or a group of pupils to assist them in their learning, homeworks and such. Kouluavustaja on the other hand can also be someone without any education who helps in daily routines of the school.

Nowadays there is also education leading to a koulunkäyntiavustaja qualification. It is a Study Programme in Children’s and Youth Care and Education that leads to a Vocational Qualification in Social and Health Care, Practical Nurse ("lähihoitaja"). There are also other types of qualifications: Further Qualification in Special Needs Instruction for Children and Young People ("Lasten ja nuorten erityisohjaajan ammattitutkinto ") and A specialist qualification called Assistant in Educational Institutions ("Koulunkäyntiavustajan erikoisammattitutkinto").

However, none of these are higher education degrees. Ther first one is an upper secondary vocational qualification. Finnish polytechnics offer education leading to a Bachelor of Humanities with a title Community Educator. In Finnish universities all education in the field of education basically leads to a Master's degree, both for the primary school and upper secondary school (subject) teachers. Therefore it might be difficult to have your B.Sc. degree "converted" 1:1 to a Finnish qualification making people qualified teachers as it is a Master's degree.

IBO Diploma course in Business and Management forms the backbone of a course that is called a "Bachelor's degree" at the local educational establishment.

I wonder what educational establishment we are talking here??? There are only two educational establishments in Oulu offering business education in English. 1) The Oulu Vocational College where the backbone of the curriculum IS the IBO Diploma, but only because it leads to a VOCATIONAL QUALIFICATION (i.e. an upper secondary qualification) the other one is Oulu Polytechnic where the Degree Programme in International Business leads to a BBA degree. The difference is that you need a vocational or matriculation examination / IB / Reifeprüfung / A-levels / high school diploma or what ever there is on that level in the world to be even able to apply for a polytechnic - or for a university for that matter.