too shy to speak Finnish

[EP]

It's arrogance from both sides!!!

Actually, from a Finn´s side it is meant to be politeness.

[enk]

I have asked Brits who have been living here for decades and speak extremely fluent Finnish (ie they know the language inside and out) and they've said they still get it... I'm usually just polite, state my rationale for why we should speak in Finnish and get on with it...

While definitely not a Brit, I don't have this problem. People
speak to me in Finnish and I answer in Finnish. (Except for in
the bar yesterday, when we had a nice ol' convo in Swedish. )

But the ex used to find it amusing that when we went to the store
and were speaking to each other in English (and his spoken English is far
from perfect since it's been so long since we lived in the USA) that the
clerks thought that HE was the foreigner and would talk to him in
English. Sometimes he played along with it just to see how much
they would blush when his driver's license had a totally Finnish
name on it and they realized that he wasn't the foreigner .

A small hint: if you want people to talk to you in Finnish, reply
in Finnish when they talk to you in English. Most people won't notice
you're doing it, but in the end they'll switch back over to Finnish
without noticing that either.

-enk

[Sopheline]

Merci Salope...

/Paul

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that

I understand about the shyness thing. I think it also depends on how you prepare yourself- are you better off at plunging straight in or do you need to take a breath, get into "foreign language mode" and then start? I was on my way from Turku to Tampere back at the start of December and at the trainstation; I started off normally by asking for a ticket to Tampere at the desk.

Me: "Haluaisin yksi lippu Tamperelle "
Him: "blablabla opiskelija something" I can't understand normal speed Finnish yet, but I knew he was asking if I wanted a student discount
Me: *shakes head*
Him: Normaali? I look about 15
Me: I was about to say 'mä en ole opiskelija Suomessa' "Me.. mä.... *sigh* I'm not a student in Finland *sheepish smile*"

I just started off wrong, I was hot and had a dry throat from taking a (very) brisk walk to the train station wearing a warm coat and dragging a bag behind me, and I was feeling a bit under the weather anyway and it was just discouraging enough that I figured I might as well switch to English since it would be faster.

Eh, worse was the time when I was with a friend on the train back from Korso to Helsinki and she asked for two tickets but the ticket lady on the train only heard one. So there was me, thinking "I know how to say this, it's 'hän sanoi kaksi lippua'" and then saying "H-hän sanoo... kaks... kaksi lippua"

Language shyness is so annoying Throat dries up, I start kind of stuttering and my voice goes sooo quiet. Unless of course I'm in a bar, some person is asking me where I'm from and they don't understand "from London", so then when I finally go "Olen Lontoosta", they then start rambling at me in Finnish. So I look lost.

Of course, I've not been much in Finland, but my experience so far has been ok in shops. When it's one of those minimal-talking transactions, that's not a problem. I'm getting better at identifying when the cashier asks me if I have their loyalty card or if I want a bag to carry my items now, and since those are pretty simple to deal with, that's not a problem. When I was looking for a dictionary, I did ask the shop assistant first in Finnish if they had dictionaries, and she showed me over to the shelf where they were and then started explaining what they were like (in Finnish) so I had to ask her to slow down, explaining that "haluan oppia suomi mutta minä en tiedä... *sigh* what dictionary would be the best for me" and then we just carried on the conversation in English as there was no way I'd get much further than that in Finnish. But, she didn't switch to English before I did, so much appreciation to her

Sorry about the me-ramble

[enk]

One thing that I notice with foreigners learning Finnish is that they
still haven't picked up the "minimalism is better" way of speaking.
Learn it quickly, it helps a lot and is more Finnish in the long run

As an example:

If I had to interact with someone to buy a ticket, it would be
more like this:

E: Opiskelijalippu Tampereelle.
T: Täs.
E: Kiitos.

That's it. Those flaming books for foreigners make it seem like you
have to say long-ar*ed grammatically correct sentences in order
to get something, but you don't. And if you ever use ole/olkaa hyvä,
you can bet your bottom dollar that you're going to get talked to
in English.

If they're going to speak to you in machine-gun style, just say "Häh?"
and get them to repeat it. If they continue, say "Hei, haloooo." and give
them a withering look. If they're still clueless, use a brick.

OT: I once stopped at Punjab in Tampere some summer when I still didn't
know much Finnish and on the train from Siilinjärvi I sat there and
thought of all the correct ways to say what I wanted in Finnish,
stumbled through them when I got to Punjab, turned bright red in
the process, only to realize that the girl behind the counter didn't
understand any more Finnish than I did

-enk

[sammy]

One thing that I notice with foreigners learning Finnish is that they
still haven't picked up the "minimalism is better" way of speaking.
Learn it quickly, it helps a lot and is more Finnish in the long run

As an example:

If I had to interact with someone to buy a ticket, it would be
more like this:

E: Opiskelijalippu Tampereelle.
T: Täs.
E: Kiitos.

That's it. Those flaming books for foreigners make it seem like you
have to say long-ar*ed grammatically correct sentences in order
to get something, but you don't. And if you ever use ole/olkaa hyvä,
you can bet your bottom dollar that you're going to get talked to
in English.

If they're going to speak to you in machine-gun style, just say "Häh?"
and get them to repeat it. If they continue, say "Hei, haloooo." and give
them a withering look. If they're still clueless, use a brick.

OT: I once stopped at Punjab in Tampere some summer when I still didn't
know much Finnish and on the train from Siilinjärvi I sat there and
thought of all the correct ways to say what I wanted in Finnish,
stumbled through them when I got to Punjab, turned bright red in
the process, only to realize that the girl behind the counter didn't
understand any more Finnish than I did

-enk

Ni.

[enk]

Ni.

-enk

[kay30]

One thing that I notice with foreigners learning Finnish is that they still haven't picked up the "minimalism is better" way of speaking. Learn it quickly, it helps a lot and is more Finnish in the long run -enk

Best point I have seen so far in this thread. I have always communicated much better in Finnish when using the "One Step Above Grunting" method rather than using those long-ass sentences in the books.

Even when visiting the older Finnish relatives here, they never say to me in Finnish:

- Would you be ever so kind as to have a seat? Can I possibly offer you some coffee?

It's just:

-Sit. Want some coffee?

[sepi_seb]

Wow , starts to be a real discussion here.
There is another major problem which is :
A Finn. A Finnish person is usually shy and do not talk much.
For example if you try small talk in bus or in city, people will think you are crazy. In France, small talk is a normal thing.
So if two shy persons meet:(a Finn and I), how much communication do you think it will be? none.


have a nice week end
sepi

[sammy]

There is another major problem which is :
A Finn. A Finnish person is usually shy and do not talk much.

Well, yes I suppose that's often true. However it may not be a question of shyness as such - I'd say that in most cases at least it is the social norm of "no small talk" misinterpreted as shyness. (For your average Finn, conversely, the French social norm of "as much small talk as possible please" could be misinterpreted as "being a bit weak in the head" )

But, of course, shy Finns also exist. They can usually be cured with the so-called Ursa Minor (or, in more advanced cases, Ursa Major) method.

http://www.karhu.fi/

[Sopheline]

One thing that I notice with foreigners learning Finnish is that they
still haven't picked up the "minimalism is better" way of speaking.
Learn it quickly, it helps a lot and is more Finnish in the long run

As an example:

If I had to interact with someone to buy a ticket, it would be
more like this:

E: Opiskelijalippu Tampereelle.
T: Täs.
E: Kiitos.

I prefer the minimalist approach anyway, usually if I'm buying a ticket, it's just "ticket to [wherever]" anyway

Speaking of which, can anyone explain to me *why* it's Tampereelle (whoops, always forget that extra e) and not Tampereen like it would be Helsinkiin etc? That still confuses me, even though I perfectly get that some towns take -ssa/ä for "in" and some take -lla/ä.

But, of course, shy Finns also exist. They can usually be cured with the so-called Ursa Minor (or, in more advanced cases, Ursa Major) method.

There's a Minor method?

[sammy]

But, of course, shy Finns also exist. They can usually be cured with the so-called Ursa Minor (or, in more advanced cases, Ursa Major) method.

There's a Minor method?

Yes - although they are more rare

Ursa Minor: Ursa Major:

[trentti]

I should have read this thread yesterday before posting on the 'how long did it take you to learn Finnish' thread, because my post would have been better at this one.
Anyway, as I said in the other post, I guess I am lucky in that I am yet to come across a Finn who won't speak to me in Finnish if I start the conversation in Finnish (actually, sorry, I lie, there was one - but there's always an exception) - if I don't understand something they'll either try to explain it again in simpler Finnish or in English, but then switch back to Finnish again. And I have found that to be really encouraging.
So I think if you just try somehow to overcome shyness in speaking Finnish and get out there and do it, the rest will hopefully fall into place soon.

[sammy]

I should have read this thread yesterday before posting on the 'how long did it take you to learn Finnish' thread, because my post would have been better at this one.
Anyway, as I said in the other post, I guess I am lucky in that I am yet to come across a Finn who won't speak to me in Finnish if I start the conversation in Finnish (actually, sorry, I lie, there was one - but there's always an exception) - if I don't understand something they'll either try to explain it again in simpler Finnish or in English, but then switch back to Finnish again. And I have found that to be really encouraging.
So I think if you just try somehow to overcome shyness in speaking Finnish and get out there and do it, the rest will hopefully fall into place soon.

Yep. The danger is, with friends especially, to get locked into the initial English - the so-called "easy option". Similar thing happened to me once, I had a French friend with whom I got accustomed to talk in English. It would have done my French (which is not much use as it is now) good no end, if I had overcome the difficulty of breaking the "English habit" and at least tried to talk more in French. Or, come to think of it, he might have profited from talking in Finnish with me. Anyway, once this kind of a pattern or habit is established, it's quite hard to break free from it really. Requires conscious effort!

[Hank W.]

I am obtuse with my Swedish. I was very mean working in the hotel as I speak with a bad Borgå and so some Rik-Swedes come in and start to speak English... Listen here, I had to suffer several years memorizing five decllinations and we asked why, and the teacher said so that we can speak with Swedes, and then you bastards come and speak English. Juu, frukoste ä i restorangen poo andra fooninki fra sju til tiie, ok vill ni ha en fakningi a vilke tid ii morna?

[Pavlor]

Speaking of which, can anyone explain to me *why* it's Tampereelle (whoops, always forget that extra e) and not Tampereen like it would be Helsinkiin etc? That still confuses me, even though I perfectly get that some towns take -ssa/ä for "in" and some take -lla/ä.

I heard it's because there's a ridge here. I've also heard Finns make mistakes with this (Riihimäessä instead of Riihimäellä is one example I heard...).