Genitive?

[Hank W.]

I truly find this kind of whimsical posting a (certain) little offensive

sapos cunilinguist save bilong genitive, mipela rausim long whining, bagarap humor

[Pecchio]

Sorry Hank!

I'm not a linguist, I'm drunk.

I'm sorry to write as a respond what I wrote. The prayer just got over me.

Was not prepared. I'm sorry.

---------

Cannot explain further.

P.

[Hank W.]

Well, pidgins or creoles usually have the most evident genitives around. Tok pisin has the bilong used as Pecchio's book and book of Pecchio are buk bilong Pecchio... Now the deciphering goes to if Pecchio owns the book or if it was originated by Pecchio... Well, the Finnish genitive has a few similar instances where one maybe has to decipher what is going on, so maybe as modern Finnish probably started as a creole (germanic words and ugric grammar) perhaps this is the reason.

The prayer just got over me.

Yes well I thought your post was about as clear a peppetto's so I had to find something about as clear that was still on topic.

[Hank W.]

ahh i see, so in a way it's just trying to understand the context of the wording??

Just remember you have to think out of the box. Finnish does not translate into English 1:1 even sometimes the words seem to be the same, as the phrases are different.

Or you can write Finnish into English 1:1 :

- Hey apologies, herewith is not allowed the burning, place of tobaccoing is outside!

If you translate the "proper" English into Finnish 1:1 , that will be about as absurd, so you have to use phrases like 'excuse me' and so forth.

so you have to "just know" that in English people smoke a cigarette and in Finnish people burn a tobacco. That will save you a lot of "why" as there is no direct equivalent always.

[Pavlor]

ahh i see, so in a way it's just trying to understand the context of the wording??

Just remember you have to think out of the box. Finnish does not translate into English 1:1 even sometimes the words seem to be the same, as the phrases are different.

Or you can write Finnish into English 1:1 :

- Hey apologies, herewith is not allowed the burning, place of tobaccoing is outside!

If you translate the "proper" English into Finnish 1:1 , that will be about as absurd, so you have to use phrases like 'excuse me' and so forth.

so you have to "just know" that in English people smoke a cigarette and in Finnish people burn a tobacco. That will save you a lot of "why" as there is no direct equivalent always.

Yes, I compeletely (almost) agree with Hank W. here. To an Indo-European speaker (unfortunately, I don't know other languages outside of this family to really comment), Finnish is mammothly labyrinthine (even to Finns it would seem) and the way it expresses itself is like doing mosaic art in the beginning, and even after many years. I believe that's why it takes a fair few years before one can consider oneself comfortable in the language as the whole linguistic mindset is "alienesque" to the Finnish learner who has never been acquainted with the whole Finno-Ugric way of thinking. In my opinion, learning how to think the way Finns do when speaking the language is like trying to learn how to read music, although in comparison, learning to read music is a whole lot easier. Anyone who can read music fluently will tell you that conveying those little black squiggles and all other periphery markings on a piece of music into sound is like being able to speak a language, but the way in which one does it is different. For me, speaking a language and reading music feels the same and I feel like I am using the same facility in my brain, but the method I employ to bring it out, so to say, is not the same. If you don't read music, however, then this will all probably sound like gibberish, but if you do, it should help.

Hank W.'s example above

- Hey apologies, herewith is not allowed the burning, place of tobaccoing is outside!

is a good example and shows the way Finns think when building up sentences, and whilst I don't like the idea of learning Finnish in this way (like I am any authority...), it is useful to "tuck it behind your ear" and remember: 'Ah, yes, Finnish does it like this or that'. I did do this (and still do to a certain extent), and as language is merely a habit, it becomes more and more natural the more you use it. I certainly remember doing this when I was learning how to convey, for example, 'there is a ... in the room' which in the Finnish way of thinking is 'in the room (or room-in) is ...' (Huoneessa on ...).

Much of Finnish grammar is "just" a system (like most grammars, but as Finnish has a whole lot of grammar, it feels a whole lot more like a system). Once you are able to compute these systems into your brain, you should be able to 1) recognise them, 2) store them and then 3) employ them actively. I believe that even when Finns write, they act in much the same way as someone who has learnt the language as book language and spoken language employ two different (but closely related) systems. Finns, please comment on this point as I'd like to know if this is true... I do know that some Finns find it much easier to write in spoken language , but I suppose this is like most (all?) languages.

I also agree with Hank W. that when learning Finnish, it's best to leave out a lot of the 'whys and wherefores' as this will simply impede the learning process. Why things are *is* good to know, but as there is SO much grammar in Finnish, it detracts from the active ability to speak the language, although you will know hell of a lot about it (without really being able to communicate).

And I *hate* that Finnish as a foreign language is almost exclusively taught through the medium of another language (English or Russian seem to be the most popular for obvious reasons) as that impedes active learning as well. Finnish ain't Latin and the learning of the language should not be viewed as an academic pursuit unless that is the aim of the learner. Anyway...

[rrryyyaaannn]

That was quite an enlightening post, Pavlor. I also agree with leaving out the "why" questions in order to forward one's intuitive learning of the language. I only speak/understand basic Finnish, but I know that the complex Finnish grammar system can be pretty crippling if you question it too much. I think it's also interesting that even though most native speakers of any language are capable of SPEAKING with correct grammar, they're often unable to explain WHY it is that way. It's a matter of "feeling" the language, as opposed to simply executing it.

[Hank W.]

the Finnish learner who has never been acquainted with the whole Finno-Ugric way of thinking

One of them old farts said "ken taitaa suomen kielen, myös taitaa suomen mielen" or something like that. Might not have been that much off.

[ICEMAN]

thanks again for al the great advice everyone, many thanks to all of you that took the time to reply to me! I think i'll take your advice and not concentrate so hardcore on the grammar (as it's giving me a perminant headache haha). my girlfriend actually said the same to me a while back, just ry to get the vocab down and the colloquial aspects before the grammar. of course i have to get down the basics like case endings and all that, but I'm not going to scrutinize it as much as i have in the passed few weeks.

Thanks for the advice and thanks for the breakdown on the genitive/accusative, it's all helped very much

[network_engineer]

Hi.

I am not an expert at this and if you want the best understanding, you should either refer to Karlsson or then another Forum member by the handle - Daryl.

1. My understanding and an answer to the original poster's question is that the adjective takes the same form as the object. Thus,

Haluan iso voileipä could be.

- Haluan isoa voileipää
- Haluan ison voileivän

But the above sentences could mean differently. Voileivän in the above sentence is in the accusative case, i.e. akkusatiivi. So is "ison".


Another example is... Olen isoissa busissa. In English, the adjective does not take the same case, i.e. I am in the big bus. There are no inflections on the adjective.

Thus, ison is not the possesive (genetiivi) form, but the inflected accusative form. It can be a bit confusing, since both accusative and possesive cases take the same form.

2. - tse corresponds to 'by means of', e.g. Lähetän sen postitse (I send it by post)... tulen meritse (I come by sea). etc.

Cheers.