Center for Inclusion first meeting!!!

Jason Wright · Post by **Jason Wright** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:33 pm

littlefrank wrote:I'm sure it's all simply SUPER.

Sorry, I don't follow. Are you trying to say something?

**Sponsor:**

littlefrank · Post by **littlefrank** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:45 pm

Simply super, you know a spiffing show old chap, it's good to see some social do gooders helping out us Johnny foreigners, us ethnic people are jolly nice once you get to know us.

sinikettu · Post by **sinikettu** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:11 am

I have kept quiet in this thread..but now I have to say something.

Associations/WW Message boards etc for "foreign immigrants" already exist.
Caisa...I E S A F.....Finland Forum..Ex Pat Finland...Uranus .fi etc etc..

And here we have another one...and good luck to it and those who attempt to do something useful for "foreign immigrants"...

Will they/it succeed?

IMH opinion only if they do two things.

Firstly get the immigrants to mix with Finns.
Dont sit together (in a church hall) with like apples in the same barrel..Intergrate.

Too many of these "associations" have only a couple of token Finns plus some long time already here, old farts.
Both the old farts, and the token Finns, tend to become cynical/impatient..worn down by the "same story"...caused by lack of knowledge of what "they" the "foreign immigrants"...are going to experience here in Finland.

Then we see comments like this from the good intentioned...
Jason Wright
I am rather disappointed to see such pessimism on this thread.

Why ?
Because nobody has fixed the number one problem for "foreign immigrants"...The language.

The Finnish Language is a must and has to be given higher priority.
My first must do I repeat...get the immigrants to mix with Finns.
That will force the language to be attempted.

The second must do somehow..and I dont know how...is the standard and quantity/availabilty, of teaching "foreign immigrants"...Finnish has to be greatly improved.
Everyone knows that the chances of integrating and getting a job becoming a "useful member of the population" depends on being able to communicate in the laguage/Finnish.
What is needed is a pressure group to get this message over to those responsible for funding/organising language training for "foreign immigrants"...
If the ministry of education was to put the same amount of priority into Finnish for "foreign immigrants"...that they do into English for Finns the problem could be solved.

If the "Centre for Inclussion" can become that "pressure group" they will get the support of many old farts, like me..but if they sit and chat in English over a cup of tea....they will become another failed project.

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:03 am

So I will not give a reason for my sarcasm..
I guess that Sinikettu has reasoned it out really well for me..
Too many cooks spoil the broth..
Too many organizations with same agendas will not only split people and the help but also drain the volunteer's energy and their focus..
Sinikettu puts it very eloquently on the reasons for why most orgs fail or have trouble keeping up with "Helping"..

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:04 am

Oh yes..I also forgot about the funding bit..Each of them will drain the funding from different sources in their own way instead of having one organization with enough money to do the same thing..

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:14 am

And "pessimism" in Finland is called "reality of life".

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:26 am

Hank W. wrote:And "pessimism" in Finland is called "reality of life".

Then I really wonder what this guy is saying..

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:28 am

sinikettu wrote:Firstly get the immigrants to mix with Finns.

Ah, but how can you do that? Now your average Finn doesn't really see the point: first of all to cross the threshold of going with strange people and speak in a strange language - only to find out innecessant whining of how bad life here is, how Finns are racists, and then plan on redistributing tax money to support these whiney ungrateful bastards. So that leaves only the flowerhatteds and the kooks. And the flowerhatteds are there running after the foreign men, so that leaves only the kooks, and I got already enough to do already.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:29 am

Ah, raam, but what about those fat people like me who want to diet?

This foreign terminology is sometimes really confusing. Say like my company has this slogan on "mental growth". Now as we all know there is a Finnish saying "you are growing an erection is on your forehead". So it seems the company is suggesting that we're all a bunch of dickheads... really looses something in the translation, but its fun to answer "how are you do" as "I have mental growth"...

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:35 am

Hank W. wrote:Ah, raam, but what about those fat people like me who want to diet?

Grow Up hank!!

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:47 am

Hank W. wrote: Say like my company has this slogan on "mental growth". "how are you do" as "I have mental growth"...

and dee daa daa

to become one

enk · Post by **enk** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:42 am

Hank W. wrote:Ah, but how can you do that? Now your average Finn doesn't really see the point: first of all to cross the threshold of going with strange people and speak in a strange language - only to find out innecessant whining of how bad life here is, how Finns are racists, and then plan on redistributing tax money to support these whiney ungrateful bastards. So that leaves only the flowerhatteds and the kooks. And the flowerhatteds are there running after the foreign men, so that leaves only the kooks, and I got already enough to do already.

Ahh, but therein lies the whole thing. You won't find those of us who have
integrated whining blah blah. And the reason we have integrated is
because *tadah* we know the language (or more than one of them
in some weird cases). And we didn't sit around in ex-pat bars or
in associations for people from the same language/national/etc.
background, we got off our duffs and *gasp* went out and met
Finns, got involved, even when we didn't know the language.
We might not speak the language perfectly, we might not remember
the holidays (and show up on holidays at work), but we also
don't prevent our non-Finnishness from letting us get involved in
the Finnish society and we sure as heck don't expect it to bow
down and kiss our *sses just because we've different passports
in our pockets. The audacity of it is just incredible.

You want to integrate? Don't stick your kids in international schools,
don't hang around with people who speak your language, learn
Finnish or Swedish (depending on where you live), go to talkoot,
ask your local church (not the English worship versions) if anyone Finnish-
speaking wants to adopt your family or if there is an elderly person you
can adopt, get involved in charity, join a non-foreigner-filled sports team,
Integration doesn't come overnight, it's not easy and you'll probably cry
out of frustration at some point in time, so suck it up.

-enk

kay30 · Post by **kay30** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:55 pm

-enk: your post was excellent

It's true. Suck it up people (myself included). Crying to other ex-pats about how "hard" it is here is just valuable time wasted on not learning the language. Indeed, what *is* the point of having endless group therapy sessions when it gets you nowhere in the end. Great. You told someone how bad you feel (again). Guess what, you still don't speak Finnish!

I think this types of associations are very good to a *point*. But after a while, could it not also be argued that they do their members a disservice by not allowing them to "sink or swim" and as a constant reminder that they are somehow "different".

Which is kinder in the end? To give people the tools to fish, but yet keep constantly feeding them when they don't even want to try to fish? Or to kick them out of the boat after a certain point and tell them "sink or swim"?

The best thing anyone has done here for me is to refuse to speak English with me. I didn't like it, but guess what, it works.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:02 pm

Well, theres a slight difference between the kiddies pool with the yellow tinge and then a hole in the ice, if you get pushed out of the boat... In either case if you don't move your hands and feet you'll end up as a diving master, but the cold water on the other hand might be an incentive to get moving very fast...

Mattlill2000 · Post by **Mattlill2000** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:35 pm

The Finnish Language is a must and has to be given higher priority.

So many times I've said how easy it is to find work here, how friendly the Finns are etc., which are the complete opposite of what many have written here, thinking we must be living in different countries. And reading more and more in Finland Forum and now realizing, the reason why things are like they are for me is because I speak Finnish and now am beginning to realize how difficult life must be like over here if you don't speak the language. People please, learn the language.