what is you biggest culture shock? positive and negative

[Munlaw]

Anyway, please carry on - as a Finn, I'm supposed to be endlessly interested in what the "others" think about "us"

Another checkmark in the "similarities" catagory comparing Canada and Finland...Canadians are also fairly interested in what the "others" think about them...

[sammy]

Anyway, please carry on - as a Finn, I'm supposed to be endlessly interested in what the "others" think about "us"

Another checkmark in the "similarities" catagory comparing Canada and Finland...Canadians are also fairly interested in what the "others" think about them...

It's a bit like the old elephant joke... about what different nationalities typically think of on seeing an elephant

-An American wonders how he could make big bucks with it
-An Italian comes up with a dozen delicious elephant pasta recipes
-A Japanese puts down his camera, pulls out his electronic notebook and jots down a few suggestions on how to mass produce a smaller, more efficient version of the animal
-A Frenchman can't help but ponder on the mating habits of the elephant
-A Finn quickly averts his eyes and thinks to himself, hmm what might the big beast think of me

[otyikondo]

Anyway, please carry on - as a Finn, I'm supposed to be endlessly interested in what the "others" think about "us"

Another checkmark in the "similarities" catagory comparing Canada and Finland...Canadians are also fairly interested in what the "others" think about them...

It's a bit like the old elephant joke... about what different nationalities typically think of on seeing an elephant

-An American wonders how he could make big bucks with it
-An Italian comes up with a dozen delicious elephant pasta recipes
-A Japanese puts down his camera, pulls out his electronic notebook and jots down a few suggestions on how to mass produce a smaller, more efficient version of the animal
-A Frenchman can't help but ponder on the mating habits of the elephant
-A Finn quickly averts his eyes and thinks to himself, hmm what might the big beast think of me

It's often put down to a "small country" syndrome - seeing as how we (mercifully) seldom cross the international news threshold, when we do we get all excited about it.

But in order for this theory to be proven, we'd need some empirical evidence from other countries in a similar position. I'll start the ball rolling... could the SWISS give a tuppenny toss what the rest of the world think about them? Do they lie awake at nights worrying that people find their lack of universal suffrage an affront? That they periodically produce wacko cults that commit mass suicide? Or do they simply raise a single digit to the world? If so, what have they got (apart from banks living on the money of holocaust victims) that we haven't got?

[sammy]

could the SWISS give a tuppenny toss what the rest of the world think about them? Do they lie awake at nights worrying that people find their lack of universal suffrage an affront?

Judging by their surprisingly "Finnish" sculpture, they could, and do.



Returning to the subject I'm surprised that no-one has yet mentioned drinking habits. Ah yes, the Finnish weekend binge drinking... or is everyone oot on the tap?

[Jukka Aho]

the fact that once people have finished eating they leave the table straight without waiting that other people have finished. OR they start their meal without waiting that everybody is sit or served.

Depends on the family. Back in the 1980s, one of my schoolmates would get grounded for a week or two if he was not at home by the scheduled time for the family dinner.

I think most (adult) Finns do recognize the idea that not starting before everyone’s ready and not leaving the table before everyone’s finished are (supposedly) good manners... but many just don’t enforce that rule in any too strict way in their normal everyday family life... or it is left at the level of the mother or father nagging a bit to their children, and then forgetting about it. (The exceptions are something like the Christmas Eve or Day dinner, Grandma’s 80th birthday, etc., where you might even be wearing a bit smarter and more formal clothing than usually... or if you have, say, the President as your dinner guest.)

Quite not very social. (Maybe its the way ive been raised which is against this way of eating)

Eating has not historically been too much of a social event for Finns. Happy empty banter might even have been forbidden at the dinner table. There is (or has been) a culture of “respecting the food” in Finland – not wasting it, not treating it in disrespectful manner. You have been supposed to say your prayers and then savor your meal in silence, being humble and thankful of how God Almighty has blessed us with bread on the table today as well, and not spoiling the daily moment of appreciating this fact with some inane small talk. See the following images to get an idea: (Image 1) (Image 2).

[otyikondo]

Negative (many, many, many years ago):

Apparent lack of conversational skills.

Positive (now):

Refusal to indulge in fatuous small talk.

Just depends how you look at it.


On a more serious (seriously) plane.... when I arrived (I'm as old as dirt), I WAS completely confused by the fact of coming from a U.K. campus environment where people who sold Militant on street-corners or belonged to semi-banned IS had to keep their noses scrupulously clean (no dope, don't look too manky, etc..) to avoid police harassment, whereas out-and-out Stalinists here were practically part of the establishment. In a nutshell, I wondered at the absence of any form of "out there" radical socialist thought. It was all somehow so "sliipattu" - but then I guess I missed out on the short summer of the Finnish Underground - Numminen, Coitus, Suomen Talvisota, and Jymy and all that...

[vincebel]

You have been supposed to say your prayers and then savor your meal in silence, being humble and thankful of how God Almighty has blessed us with bread on the table today

Not in my close family. but in my uncles family we actuaaly say a small prayer before to eat. But personnaly i think its a bit too much

Back to the negative and positive. Drinking habit might been seen as both, depending on who you are. Personnaly i find it pretty positive when im drunk and negative when i have to take care of my smashed girlfriend

[donald]

But in order for this theory to be proven, we'd need some empirical evidence from other countries in a similar position. I'll start the ball rolling... could the SWISS...

somebody called me?

....give a tuppenny toss what the rest of the world think about them? Do they lie awake at nights worrying that people find their lack of universal suffrage an affront? That they periodically produce wacko cults that commit mass suicide? Or do they simply raise a single digit to the world? If so, what have they got (apart from banks living on the money of holocaust victims) that we haven't got?

No, we don't care about what the rest of the world thinks about us. And reading your post full of things that aren't true I think we're better off this way.

But, along with my experiences, the same counts for most things outsiders would say about Finland. Just things that aren't true. But the Finn is concerned about it.

[donald]

Positive:

No need to conform to others. You can be crazy as you want, as long as you don't cause harm to others, your neighbour won't come to your door telling you that in this apartment block you're supposed to act like anybody else..

No need to small talk.

Finns don't complain about things they can't or don't want to change. They're just sisu!!

And much more!!!


Negative:

People do not apologise. Be it that somebody did something wrong unintentionally, or be it even intentionally, when things are noticed no one says a !"#¤% about it. Finns do not express they're sorry for a problem/misunderstanding/distress they caused. This still isl something that is difficult for me to deal with. When someone comes to me and explaines what he was really meaning when I felt bad about something, or he comes even to apologise if he did something wrong, then I know he himself has noticed it, he did not intend to do so and in future he will not do it again. But in Finland, they just don't get back to anything...

But I think this is just a part of the culture of minimal conversation. And no, I am not after a group hugging here, it is not such a big thing for me anymore, now as I learned that Finns are just this way. Take them or leave them.

[Jukka Aho]

You have been supposed to say your prayers and then savor your meal in silence, being humble and thankful of how God Almighty has blessed us with bread on the table today

Not in my close family. but in my uncles family we actuaaly say a small prayer before to eat. But personnaly i think its a bit too much

I was not talking about the modern life – more like the 19th century or the early 20th century life, in a rural small farm setting. But my grandpa used to read a little prayer before eating (at least sometimes).

The general lack of cheerful banter and chatter in a Finnish dinner table – with people often eating in silence for extended periods of time and without feeling one bit awkward about it – is probably at least partly inherited from those times when food was still treated with respect and seen as a gift from God.

Edit: My theory is that eating is mostly a functional event in Finland: stuffing yourself with nutrition. Keeping updated with what each family member is doing, etc. has probably never been the major reason for common family dinners here. Instead, it has primarily been a functional thing: in the old days it was not easy to preserve prepared food or keep it warm for long – much less prepare the meals for each family member individually at different times... and in a rural small farm setting, family members would often work together, anyway, getting hungry at approximately the same time of the day and observing the same daily rhythm much more closer than today.

These days, those things are no longer issues, and people might just microwave some leftovers from the fridge or the freezer. Preparing the daily meals is no longer such a big deal (from the functional viewpoint) that it would require everyone to be present at the same time – it is quite easy to preserve food and warm it up again, or just eat out, or order a pizza, or whatever. Also, food is taken more for granted now than back in times when a year of crop failure could make things really difficult for a family. God has given way to a secular society. The family members are no longer working together on the fields or taking care of the cattle but follow their own, individual daily schedules.

[otyikondo]

But in order for this theory to be proven, we'd need some empirical evidence from other countries in a similar position. I'll start the ball rolling... could the SWISS...

somebody called me?

....give a tuppenny toss what the rest of the world think about them? Do they lie awake at nights worrying that people find their lack of universal suffrage an affront? That they periodically produce wacko cults that commit mass suicide? Or do they simply raise a single digit to the world? If so, what have they got (apart from banks living on the money of holocaust victims) that we haven't got?

No, we don't care about what the rest of the world thinks about us. And reading your post full of things that aren't true I think we're better off this way.

But, along with my experiences, the same counts for most things outsiders would say about Finland. Just things that aren't true. But the Finn is concerned about it.

Blimey.. I was only testing the water, but...

Order of the Solar Temple, anyone? 1994 wasn't THAT long ago, surely?

1971 .. Twenty-three years after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the year after Yemen got around to it. OK, OK, the cantons were a bit earlier.. some of them. Some weren't.

And as for the banks, well, that's speculation, but if it didn't happen at all, then how come they paid out over $1 billion after Stewart Eizenstat's report, and a further $379 million after the Volcker and Bergier Commission reports in the 1990s?


If I didn't know better, I'd almost think the Swiss might be in something like the same state of denial as we Finns were described to be in after all hell broke loose in the wake of "Moyes on Jokela" in The Times.

[Megstertex]

Positive: I love being in the outdoors, in the fresh air and drinking clean water with a close friend or two, out in the middle of nowhere. It is like a religious experience-and I mean that in the most positive way-not actually comparing to any "church" experiences I've had. Picking berries, camping, orienteering, and cycling feel about as close to spiritual as I've ever felt. I love that there is a season and right time to do everything. I love traveling, and wouldn't be able to live here if I could never leave, but it somehow always feels nice, safe, and predictable coming back to Finland, where things seem to just work just so, in a predictable holding pattern, that I can stir up when it applies to my own life.

It is also sometimes a relief that there are so few social niceties to have to worry about. If I don't really enjoy someone's company, not only do I not have to talk to them, I could actually avoid them the rest of my life--which would not be possible in many places due to societal pressures. The difference between a Finn and myself--I have some guilt that goes along with this type of behavior, but I know that it is completely acceptable here, no guilt at all, to not include or exert energy on people that you may not enjoy. One catch: it is a small, small country. I don't ever recommend burning any bridges. But, ignore, ignore, and choose a few close friends to really focus on, you don't have to exert a lot of energy on acquaintances so much.

Still coming to terms with: I enjoy being able to engage in independent and self sufficient activities, and almost nobody thinks it is strange. This may be because I am a foreigner and am "allowed" to go see a movie by myself without feeling odd about it, though many Finnish friends would die before doing so. I really enjoy the liberty of it. I am starting to feel a bit more comfortable the social networks I have built for myself here, and accept that I may never be totally accepted as a Finn, something I will never be, that it may never be my definition of true friendship, (there seems to often be an unintentional everyone looks out for only themselves mentality, and others as an afterthought, or when "etiquette" tells you so,) and so I embrace the space I am given, and often take the opportunity to have my own space to myself.

Negative: 1) this will sum up many issues I do not accept: This is often a culture of AVOIDANCE, and it drives me insane sometimes. I won't get into all the many facets of Finnish culture that this seeps through, but just to get you thinking about it--think about how differences are resolved, divorce proceedings, drinking culture, email and texting behavior, job hunting, "dating", TV tax, church tax and tram tickets--I could go on and on, this is often a recurring theme that I notice-perhaps because I much prefer to resolve things head on quickly and thoroughly, and I find all the passive aggressiveness to be most inefficient, in spite of what the damn culture books say about Finns and efficiency.

2) With the Finns that have not traveled, , and it is easy to tell:(and no, this is not the same as in other countries for ppl that haven't traveled)-- a severe case of narrowmindedness, accepting only one "right" way of doing things, and the inability to accept anything new or different. These are the same ppl that get so upset with petty little details, ie., to jump in on the table manners thing: They will severely "correct" a small child from another country eating with utensils the way he is taught ("THE KNIFE MUST ALWAYS FACE THIS WAY!!"), but at the same time, may be doing something much bigger that to me is more offensive, like throwing food on the table to disappear for 15 minutes to take a cell phone call, or text through the entire meal, then act surprised when people don't begin the meal without the host, as if eating were just an annoying thing that one must do to live, rather than enjoying a meal prepared together with host and using the precious social opportunity as such.

I also agree that Finns can be awful to strangers, and it is acceptable behavior. I come from the opposite, where ppl are genuinely nice to strangers--i.e., Mary and Joseph, would have been sleeping in the owner's bed at the inn.

[vincebel]

also something i found rude when i arrived was the way of speaking of finns in english.


Basic example. someome i barely know and said to me "Give me a cigarette"

After a few explanations on a most polite way to ask yhis, this guy explained me that there is no word for "please" in finnish and there is a few polite forms in the finnish language.

Even if i dont care anymore with my friends cos i know they are not rude and very nice people, i still not appreciate when my 12 years old step brother speaks to me like that and i try to explain him to speak a bit more politely in case he travels in Europe (outside finland for a finn) when he is older.

[littlefrank]

Sammy

'only those who are lucky enough to win the f*cking ballot for the proms tickets get there to see it in person'


I know that the little englanders would fight for the pleasure of waving little flags and harping on about Jerusalem, probably the same people that actually pay to go to watch Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals, but I don't think it's a big event on the telly.

Enk

'the Swedish-speaking Finnish families I've broken bread with stay seated at the table

My ex isn't a Swedish speaking Finn and my friends are mostly Finnish speakers too, although two are from a mixed marriage Finn/Swede, I get round this sitting at the table eating meals, by putting mine and Eili's dinner on the little table that Hank gave us, in front of the comp, occasionally I tell Eili to sit properly at the little table, occasionally she does, so etiquette satisfied we carry on watching the film.

[littlefrank]

'With the Finns that have not traveled, , and it is easy to tell:(and no, this is not the same as in other countries for ppl that haven't traveled)-- a severe case of narrowmindedness, accepting only one "right" way of doing things, and the inability to accept anything new or different.'



You really should meet some more Brits.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1118558.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kin ... ence_Party

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/394219.stm