The role of English in the Nordic countries

[Rosamunda]

If someone won't use them when appropriate, well then he/she is just being an oik; the language itself is not to blame.

I agree strongly with this Sammy. The language isn't to blame for peoples' bad manners.

As an example, I remember having a Finnish friend as a guest in the UK many years ago. He had fluent English. We arrived at the beer, where I announced, "I'll get the first round!".

"I take a beer!", my friend boomed at the barmaid.

"You'll get nothing until you find some manners", replied the barmaid.

The word "please" was available for use in the language being used, it was just the speaker that chose not to use it. No fault of language!

Well maybe his English wasn't that fluent. It's one thing having a good vocabularly but quite something else knowing how to use it appropriately. It is possible that your friend didn't know he was being rude. He just did a quick literal Finnish->English translation and it sort of came out wrong. And that is what active fluency is all about... using language in an appropriate way (not just accurately from a grammatical point of view). It is the same with swearing. Most foreigners learn swear words VERY quickly But using them appropriately is EXTREMELY tricky and few foreigners get it completely right all of the time.

I had the same situation in my early days in France. It is customary politeness when you enter a shop in France to greet all the people in the store (shopkeeper, customers) by saying "M'sieur, (mes)dames". Everybody knows what "monsieur" and "madame" mean in English but how many Brits would know that it is appropriate to use those terms to greet people when entering a shop (or a waiting room, or any group of strangers in a confined space)?

[Karhunkoski]

Well maybe his English wasn't that fluent. It's one thing having a good vocabularly but quite something else knowing how to use it appropriately. It is possible that your friend didn't know he was being rude.

Yes, I can see which tree you're barking up, but let me add...

He knew how to use "please" and would use it when talking, e.g. to my mother. We laughed about the "barmaid experience" afterwards and his take was that "the barmaid is there to serve me, I'm paying for the service, so why should I say **please**".

[Rosamunda]

Yes, rudeness is a totally cultural thing.... like walking into someone's house without taking your shoes off. I'm pretty sure Finns find non-Finns rude when they walk into their homes without removing their shoes.....

[Karhunkoski]

like walking into someone's house without taking your shoes off. I'm pretty sure Finns find non-Finns rude when they walk into their homes without removing their shoes.....

You are so very right there!

I get asked the same questions at work:

- is it true that people don't take their shoes off when they go inside someone's house in the UK?

- is it true that there are separate hot and cold taps on opposite sides of the sink? So how do you wash you hands? Move them quickly between the two?

- the carpets in bathrooms question............

- I've heard that some people share bathwater, first in is mother, then afterwards is father, then perhaps the kids. Is it true? Hui hitto!

- why do Brits go to sauna in swimwear? That is so disgusting (bad mannered?)

[sammy]

Well maybe his English wasn't that fluent. It's one thing having a good vocabularly but quite something else knowing how to use it appropriately. It is possible that your friend didn't know he was being rude.

Yes, I can see which tree you're barking up, but let me add...

He knew how to use "please" and would use it when talking, e.g. to my mother. We laughed about the "barmaid experience" afterwards and his take was that "the barmaid is there to serve me, I'm paying for the service, so why should I say **please**".

Yes - also remember that as said, the fact that language has the means of being polite does not by necessity mean that all people would use those particular forms. In fact, I've heard quite a few people ordering beer by uttering "kolmostuoppi". They might as well say "Urgh." That said, at least most of my friends use the -isi forms and bother to add the kiitos in similar occasions... and we don't feel like we'd be using some relic words from way back in our ancestry

[mCowboy]

well, instead of saisinko, I use kiitos instead.

Olut, kiitos vs Saisinko oluen

I think that's like please in a Finnish sentence. That states what I want and that I'm also grateful for the service.

[sammy]

well, instead of saisinko, I use kiitos instead.

Olut, kiitos vs Saisinko oluen

I think that's like please in a Finnish sentence. That states what I want and that I'm also grateful for the service.

But isn't it so that kiitos means "thank you" and not "please"?

(realising that it can actually mean both is the key)

It's a bit like... in Japanese, it is considered fairly (or very) rude, if one directly answers "no" -that is, using the word for "no"- to a request, even if it would actually be the truthful answer. See this explanation - a good lesson that what we regard as "normal & the right way to behave" in other cultures is not by default similar to, or directly translatable with what we are used to.

The sense of manners (or the lack of it) can said to be universal, but the ways in which they are acted out socially and verbally are not necessarily so.

[raamv]

well, instead of saisinko, I use kiitos instead.

Olut, kiitos vs Saisinko oluen

I think that's like please in a Finnish sentence. That states what I want and that I'm also grateful for the service.

I was more meaning to use: saisinko olut, kiitos!!

[Jukka Aho]

We laughed about the "barmaid experience" afterwards and his take was that "the barmaid is there to serve me, I'm paying for the service, so why should I say **please**".

There could be other kinds of cultural things at work here than just the usage of language or perceived lack of manners...

There’s generally not too much socializing between the customer and the bartender in Finland. Watering holes come and go, they regularly change their name, theme, and clientele, their employees change frequently. And many people simply don’t have any particular “local” place to which they would always return and where they would be “known” on first-name basis, etc. (Which, if going by the tv-induced stereotypes and clichés, is quite different from how things are in the English pub culture.)

[raamv]

There’s generally not too much socializing between the customer and the bartender in Finland. Watering holes come and go, they regularly change their name, theme, and clientele, their employees change frequently. And many people simply don’t have any particular “local” place to which they would always return and where they would be “known” on first-name basis, etc. (Which, if going by the tv-induced stereotypes and clichés, is quite different from how things are in the English pub culture.)

yes..true, Finland does lack some regular "pub culture" as well as "restaurant culture"!! its better to drink the kossu at home ( or in the bus/tram) before going to the pub to pass out with the last pint of beer!!

[Karhunkoski]

There’s generally not too much socializing between the customer and the bartender in Finland.

Whilst (for what it's worth), I see you as one of the more "quality" contributors on this forum. However I have to say that the above is a pretty guff excuse for not saying "please" when ordering a beer. Why even say, "beer", you could just point and save on any frivolous and excessive "socialising" with the barmaid....

[raamv]

There’s generally not too much socializing between the customer and the bartender in Finland.

Whilst (for what it's worth), I see you as one of the more "quality" contributors on this forum. However I have to say that the above is a pretty guff excuse for not saying "please" when ordering a beer. Why even say, "beer", you could just point and save on any frivolous and excessive "socialising" with the barmaid....

yes, but then In some cultures, the thank you and the pleasantry( not nicety or not expressed outwardly) is inbuilt in the language and gestures..
so I guess that you dont need it at some circumstances when you are all familiar with the surroundings..
and this might look as Finns being rude and uncouth!!

[sammy]

Why even say, "beer", you could just point and save on any frivolous and excessive "socialising" with the barmaid....

Speaking of which, it would be even more efficient, and more Finnish, if we could sack all the bartenders and just send an SMS (for three large pints of Czech pilsner, send "BEER_LPINT_3_URQUELL" to 12356) to a service number of the pub, and the tap at our table would obligingly spit out the desired drinks... and to keep things civilised you'd of course need to make your order "BEER_LPINT_3_URQUELL_PLEASE" ... hooray for technological advancement and keeping up the taloudellinen kilpailukyky

[Jukka Aho]

There’s generally not too much socializing between the customer and the bartender in Finland.

the above is a pretty guff excuse for not saying "please" when ordering a beer. :lol: Why even say, "beer", you could just point and save on any frivolous and excessive "socialising" with the barmaid.... :P

That was not my point. I was just speculating that perhaps, in a country with “pub culture”, there is more of a built-in expectation of getting on first-name basis and being “friends” with the “local” bartender, on whatever superficial level (in which case exchanging all kinds of courtesies and politeness would naturally follow to serve that ultimate [potential] goal), whereas in Finland, the watering hole is often not your “local” and the bartender often really is just some random person that will give you a beer for money when you say something like “iso kolmonen”.

[Mook]

Anna mulle bisse (heti)

On the subject of politeness, you can always tell whensomeone's had finnish lessons - when addressing a stranger they say Haistakaa v!%#...