Should we make a prenupt agreement

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enk
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by enk » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:44 pm

Tiwaz wrote:Question, you did not sign up anything during process of divorce and/or marriage you did not understand?
And did you get married in Finland?
No, I don't sign anything I don't understand and I didn't. We got married in the US. In my case what happened was that
my lovely ex decided to stop paying bills and taxes, etc. (which I found out around the time I was throwing him out
of the house) and ulosotto has taken everything we had that was in his name only. It is, however, unclear, if I would
have been legally able to buy him out of things if we had managed to split up the matrimonial assets before ulosotto took
the stuff. As this type of situation is not something foreseeable when marrying someone, I recommend to everyone
that they get a prenup and that they have both names on everything, no matter what as I don't really care to see anyone
in my position.
Tiwaz wrote:You cannot legally not hand out 50% of everything in divorce without prenupt, in which case you may be left hanging.
Legally, you can in situations like the one above. For a long time, I was told that I should still be able to buy the
jerk out of our plot of land, but it wasn't actually true, unfortunately.

Looking back, I would have done a lot differently, but hey, hindsight is always 20/20 :D

-enk



Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

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Hank W.
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by Hank W. » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:49 pm

I think you could have contested the ulosotto... but thats a wormy can if anything...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

enk
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by enk » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:56 pm

I tried. They claim there's nothing I can do about it.

-enk

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Karhunkoski
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by Karhunkoski » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:15 pm

Travmies wrote:
Absolute bollocks.
Well, the common law wife concept under British common law is a myth.

However, there is a complex legal system to create a level playing field for both partners

One is not automatically entitled to any proportion of their partners' assets after living together for 6 months in the UK. It is simply not true, sorry to criticise you, but I can't pass by thinking someone might read what you wrote, act on it, and then find themselves with nothing after a failed cohabitation period. "Oh, but I read it on Finland Forum", will not get them anything in court.
Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

SGJ
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by SGJ » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:15 pm

Now this one is tricky :-) I'll do my best to point out some important points, but I still strongly suggest that you get a lawyer with a good command of family as well as international law. You are planning to get married, so I discuss this as if you already were. As long as you are not married, you are left without nothing in case of breakup or death. Only a common child would give you some rights, simply living together has no implications.

Rule number 1). By Finnish law, what is yours is yours and what is his is his. No matter what. Everything else is an exception.

Prenup. A prenup is meant to keep rule no. 1 in effect in case of death or divorce, which would otherwise result in separation of properties, then distribution of matrimonial assets and finally inheritance. A prenup is a very very good idea, but in your case you seem to want the contrary.

Distribution of matrimonial assets. This is the thing that some people call the 50/50 rule. Bit like that yes, but actually not that simple. You are not entitled to half of your husbands property, but entitled to have some of his property transferred to you until your net worth is equal to his, but that is the case only if your husband is richer than you are. If you are richer, then he is entitled to some of your property! Now I do not know if your property in Latvia is counted to your net worth, this is one matter where you need international law expert. I believe it is (thus bad for you considering the fate of the house). With a prenup, you waive your matrimonial right to his property and he waives his matrimonial right to your property. But what you want is to KEEP the matrimonial right to the house, so you need a prenup with a special clause or a completely different solution.

Important exception to DOMA rule. In case of death, the surviving spouse is never obliged to pay or give anything to heirs of the deceased, even if he/she is richer.

Inheritance. Children inherit it all, if there are any and there is no will. All that is left after distribution of matrimonial assets, that is. Keep concepts clear here, do not confuse DOMA with inheritance. Many people do, and lots and lots of unnecessery and erroneous forum post are written.

Legal share. 50% goes to children even if there is a will.

"Can't be kicked out of house"-rule. In case of death, the surviving spouse cannot be kicked out of house by anyone, if that house is a common home of the married couple. As he officially lives in Estonia, then is it officially your common home? Another point you need an expert for. This rule applies to right of use only, ownership transfers as normally.

Gift tax. You are paying off the debt of your bf without getting any property in return. That may be considered a gift, and gifts are subject to gift tax. It takes a very pissed off vero bureucrat to collect the tax in your case, this is merely a worst-case scenario. But you have been warned.

Recommended options:

1) Make a prenup. Not a regular one, because of aforementioned reasons. Do a special one that states that everything that you own is outside of matrimonial right except for the house. This way you get at least 50% of the house no matter what, and you get protection for your apartment in Latvia, that is if Finnish law is applied. If Latvian law is applied, then I don't know.

2) Do 1 plus ask your bf to make a will, giving the house to you. Now you get at least 75% of the house, and if you have enough money to pay the value of remaining 25% to your bf's son, he must accept the money and cannot demand a share of the actual house, so you get 100%.

3) Get some of the house transferred into your name, as a sale or as a gift. Take taxes into consideration here. It might be thought that you have been purchasing the house piece by piece by paying the bills. But ask an expert, as this is the most trickiest option of these three.

EDIT: Additionally, I'd recommend that you make a will of your own just in case you happen to die first. That way, your husband won't inherit your apartment but you can give it to anybody you like.

Prenups are registered at the magistrate.
He has a son, which means that if something happens to my boyfriend, again everything goes to his son and I am left without a place to live.
If you get married and live together, you are protected by the "Can't be kicked out of house"-rule. Provided that Finland is the country of your residence right after marriage, that is!
If something happens to both of us, then still those who are supposed to inharit something from me, are also left with nothing and everything again goes to my boyfriend's son.
Won't happen, this can be rationaled from the rules above.

Karasik
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by Karasik » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:56 am

OMG...it took me some time to read the last post, but I am so grateful for that :) I finally have some idea of what should be done and I feel relieved, that a 'different' prenupt agreement is possible, apart from the standard one. Cause I do want a prenupt, but I was worried that then we will have to 'give' all of our properties to it. Thanks so much SGJ!
I think that at the moment, if we leave out the house we live in, financially we stand on the same level. I think that according to our situation our house cannot be considered our 'common home' as he officially resides in Tallinn and I am basically living in the house 'alone'. Another stupid thing that I was doing, until only last month is that when we were renovating the house, buying all the materials and etc., I wasn't paying the bills myself. Simply every month I was transferring a certain sum to my bf's account, sometimes it was cash and then he was takiing care of all the financial things :oops:
Only this month we simply devided the bills and I paid my half... I guess sometimes it takes me far too long to think things through :beamer:
I haven't thought about the will, but this seems to be a good idea.
Anyways...thanks for the list of things I have to do...it is really very helpful!!! :D
:-)

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Hank W.
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by Hank W. » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:24 pm

BTW this is Finland, the land of taxes. You don't want to do "stupid things" re. taxes... so you need to find a lawyer who can do the paperwork "in the right order".
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

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raamv
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Re: Should we make a prenupt agreement

Post by raamv » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:32 am

Another important thing. Whatever agreement that you make, Make it in Finnish ( with an English translation attached).
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