Learning this language....

[Alastair]

Don't forget Haluatko naida minua/ut. It's a fun mistake to make I swear.

[sinikala]

Trying to learn this language is getting me down.. I've lived here for almost 3.5 years now. I can speak and understand the basics and do better one on one. But put me in a group of FInns and I am lost. Sure maybe I can get the main topic of the conversation, but I can't participate or be sure of the details. So frustrating! I am at home with 2 little ones. We live in Espoo so there are a lot of English speakers everywhere. It is rare that I really am forced to use the Finnish I know. I can go for a week without learning a new word. My Finnish husband is no help. Sometimes he'll try to speak in Finnish, but then forgets.
I guess what I have to do is force myself to use Finnish, right? I have to stop being lazy, hoping that one day I'll be fluent. Learn a new word everyday one way or another.
I am getting depressed here. Any tips or advice?

There are no quick fixes.

You don't tell which country you are from, for argument's sake I'll assume you are British .... so you did French / German / Spanish at senior school? How proficient were you after 3.5 years on the strength of a couple of hours lessons per week? Probably not very... in 3.5 years you would have had something like 200-250 hours of practise (if you count homework). Have you done as much Finnish since you have been here? I'm guessing not.

I've read that it takes about 1800 hours (someone else can surely find the exact figure) of active study / lessons / equivalent language practice to reach a decent standard in Finnish. That's 17.5 years at 2 hours per week.

Unless you are linguistically talented (or work with languages) and can dedicate a lot of time and energy to learning the language, it will be a slow process, but it will improve, so long as you stick with it.

The main thing is to have a go. Force yourself to use the language, even if you could use English. Jukka Aho lists a number of methods that sound like they would be useful (ok, some sound like bollocks too - I will comment on those further below), especially if you have spare time on your hands... personally I'm a bit "time poor" and there is no end in sight... but I like it that way.

[kay30]

I've often considered pretending to not speak English in order to get more Finnish practice. The times I have learned the most, though, have been with older people who do not speak a word of English. Three days of nothing but Finnish is enough to make my head spin but something eventually gets in there.

But I wouldn't rely on your spouse. Most of us with Finnish spouses speak English with them and they are the worst teachers of Finnish ever!. Also, if people have become used to speaking English with you, it feels weird and inefficient to switch to Finnish.

I have also read in the HS that there is some sort of of Finnish only day at Kaisaniemi in the park. But I could not tell from the article if it was a one time thing or ongoing. But maybe form your own group and get together once a week for cooking and speaking only Finnish. A big part of it is mental, though, just getting over your fear of making mistakes.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Immigr ... 5239094445

There is no easy solution, as others have said. Just blood, sweat and a whole lot of tears. It's painful, believe me I know!

[sinikala]

[*]Reading a Finnish book? Something short, sweet, and simple for starters – children’s books and novels included.

[*]Reading the daily comic strips published on the papers or on the web? Or buying Finnish-language comic books, magazines, or albums? (They don’t necessarily need to be of Finnish origin. For example, something like the Finnish editions of Asterix, Lucky Luke, or Tintin could do.)

[*]Subscribing to any Finnish magazines? Something related to your hobbies, other interests, or profession, perhaps?

[*]Listening to talk radio? (Either the real thing, as broadcast live, or the streams and podcasts available on the Internet.)

[*]Listening to music sung in Finnish and trying to figure out what the hell the lyrics are all about?

it has to be something enjoyable.

[*]Watching foreign-language tv shows with the Finnish subtitles on? (Perhaps something in a language you don’t know so you’re forced to rely on the subs.)

how often have you used that method? I've watched a few films that way... as the DVDs in the Nordic region seldom have English subtitles, Goodbye Lenin was damned hard work and detracts from the main aim... which is watching the film.

[*]Watching Finnish tv shows with the Finnish (hard-of-hearing) subtitles on?

[*]Absolutely refusing to “hear” and act on anything your spouse says unless he says it in Finnish? If you first don’t quite catch what he means, he would have to explain it in simpler terms in Finnish, instead of simply falling back to English. Windmilling with hands and pointing at things would be allowed – as well as drawing pictures and scribbling explanatory Finnish words on Post-It notes. (A logical extension of this would be explaining your desire to learn the language to your Finnish friends and relatives and then demanding the same from them.)

Whilst in principle it's a good idea, you clearly don't have practical experience of that one either.
Most of us get the basics, communication of general meaning is not the problem, it's the minutae which we miss, the fine detail. I don't think I'm alone on this one ... our partners are seldom language professionals and (i) often are incapable of explaining the fine detail, the answer to questions will usually come back "it just is" and (ii) they lack the patience after their long day at work, they just can't be arsed... and who could blame them? They didn't sign up for teaching us Finnish, so refusing to hear would not always work, certainly not in my case.

[*]Exploiting children? Children under the school age can often guide “a dumb adult” surprisingly well if you let them, for instance, by participating in their play. (But they will often deliver their corrections in a rather ruthless way, without any sugar-coating!)

[*]Hanging around in a Finnish chatroom (on IRC, perhaps), or having conversations with Finnish acquaintances (in Finnish, of course) via instant messaging?

and I spend quite enough time on this place. Do people still use IRC?

[*]Following the discussions on Finnish-language forums or in newsgroups?[/list]Readers of this thread can probably suggest suitable books, magazines, chatrooms, forums, comics, music artists, tv and radio shows, etc. – that is, if you’d like to sample such material. But that should become much easier if you can name some specific genres, interests, or hobbies.

and sounds ok... but not all of us can spend the whole day online... we have stuff that needs doing

[Karhunkoski]

I think Jukka Aho's list is pretty good, and quite probably the most sensible advice I've heard ever from a native Finn, which brings me to my first point:

- Choose well how you receive and act upon "advice" from native Finns. Yes they mean well, and they will often gear their advice and suggestions in line with their own experiences of learning "Inglis". Unfortunately you are unlikely to have had 9 or so years of Finnish language tuition during your early years, nor will you have been bombarded with film and music culture in the Finnish language. So the similarities pretty much end there, near to zero.

- You may find it increasingly frustrating that Finns will roll out stories of people who happened along to Finland, and "just picked it up in 6 months". Most don't. The evidence of this is clear if you mix with other foreigners here in Finland. It takes lots of time, no really, I mean lots...

- Some Finns will suggest you can learn through immersion, yes you can, and at least one popular member on this forum did it that way. However, I hope he won't mind me saying that he is more the exception (perhaps even exceptional) than the norm.

- Finnish is not like many other languages, it is very complex (but mostly logical) in its grammar. A non-English speaking Finn could pick up The Times and a dictionary, and be able to mostly understand what was being said. This is not the case in reverse, as you will have found, Finnish words get bent into so many different forms that unless you know the grammar, you are stumped. e.g. is mäellä in the dictionary?


I learned a few basics as a child, and have spent many extended periods in Finland since (often with non-English speakers). I had little success until:

- an intensive course of grammar classes
- after a year or so of study, you will utter your first abortions of the language.
- watch telly, turn the channel if its American tripe, stick to Finnish only
- listen to the radio, try to choose talking channels
- read online news
- ignore the advice of most Finns, they mean well, but rarely understand the task. But hey, how would they?
- remember, it DOES get easier.

Good Luck!

[kay30]

Our partners are seldom language professionals and (i) often are incapable of explaining the fine detail, the answer to questions will usually come back "it just is" and (ii) they lack the patience after their long day at work, they just can't be arsed... and who could blame them? They didn't sign up for teaching us Finnish, so refusing to hear would not always work, certainly not in my case.

YES!!!

If I hear one person say the best way to learn Finnish is with a Finnish partner (or in bed) I reserve the right to smack that person. It is NOT true and anyone who says that clearly has no experience with a Finnish partner who explains grammar thusly: "Uh, I dunno. I forget why. It just is." (As Sinikala said.) I would not want to teach my partner English, so why would he want to teach me Finnish? I don't mine explaining the odd word here and there, but to try to get me to explain the nuances of English grammar, I couldn't!

I would honestly rather wait a week and ask my Finnish teacher who can explain it to me in two seconds. And I think these mythical creatures who have learned Finnish in 6 months do not exist. I am sure there are a few, but it always a friend of a friend. Or, an exchange student from Brazil. Or someone's fourth cousin from Amsterdam. You never actually meet that person. One of the few people I have met who IS fluent in Finnish is German, VERY hardworking, and it took him I think 5+ years.

[Pursuivant]

well, the German girl in my class in the hotel school back in 1992 - I thought she was one of the local swedes but she only had a slight pronunciation thing... and she'd been in the country something like 7 months and could pass the entrance tests and interviews... but she was a prodigy.

[tla]

There is no easy solution, as others have said. Just blood, sweat and a whole lot of tears. It's painful, believe me I know!

Okay, I believe this!
Thanks everyone for the comments. Taking more classes in the evenings is a good idea. And trying to not feel so shy about making mistakes.
Btw, I'm American so this is pretty much the first language that I'm trying to master. I really ADMIRE all the Europeans who speak muliple languages!
Yes, I'll keep at it. Thanks all!

[raamv]

Our partners are seldom language professionals and (i) often are incapable of explaining the fine detail, the answer to questions will usually come back "it just is" and (ii) they lack the patience after their long day at work, they just can't be arsed... and who could blame them? They didn't sign up for teaching us Finnish, so refusing to hear would not always work, certainly not in my case.

YES!!!

If I hear one person say the best way to learn Finnish is with a Finnish partner (or in bed) I reserve the right to smack that person. It is NOT true and anyone who says that clearly has no experience with a Finnish partner who explains grammar thusly: "Uh, I dunno. I forget why. It just is." (As Sinikala said.) I would not want to teach my partner English, so why would he want to teach me Finnish? I don't mine explaining the odd word here and there, but to try to get me to explain the nuances of English grammar, I couldn't!

I would honestly rather wait a week and ask my Finnish teacher who can explain it to me in two seconds. And I think these mythical creatures who have learned Finnish in 6 months do not exist. I am sure there are a few, but it always a friend of a friend. Or, an exchange student from Brazil. Or someone's fourth cousin from Amsterdam. You never actually meet that person. One of the few people I have met who IS fluent in Finnish is German, VERY hardworking, and it took him I think 5+ years.

Well, the expectation is the biggest OBSTACLE!! most people if they want the partner to "speak" Finnish instead of them teaching would be OK!!

[Jukka Aho]

[*]Watching foreign-language tv shows with the Finnish subtitles on? (Perhaps something in a language you don’t know so you’re forced to rely on the subs.)

:thumbsdown: how often have you used that method? I've watched a few films that way... as the DVDs in the Nordic region seldom have English subtitles, Goodbye Lenin was damned hard work and detracts from the main aim... which is watching the film.

Hmm... of course it is hard work! But who says the “main aim” should be watching the film and not learning the language? Or to get away with doing as little work as possible, for that matter? Couldn’t an aspiring language learner consciously choose to accept the inconvenience of having it the other way around, at least initially? Delayed rewards and all that... ;)

Anyway, I’ve used that method (among others) for refreshing my Swedish when watching Swedish TV channels on the cable.

[*]Absolutely refusing to “hear” and act on anything your spouse says unless he says it in Finnish? :) If you first don’t quite catch what he means, he would have to explain it in simpler terms in Finnish, instead of simply falling back to English. Windmilling with hands and pointing at things would be allowed – as well as drawing pictures and scribbling explanatory Finnish words on Post-It notes. (A logical extension of this would be explaining your desire to learn the language to your Finnish friends and relatives and then demanding the same from them.)

Whilst in principle it's a good idea, you clearly don't have practical experience of that one either.
Most of us get the basics, communication of general meaning is not the problem, it's the minutae which we miss, the fine detail I don't think I'm alone on this one ... our partners are seldom language professionals and (i) often are incapable of explaining the fine detail, the answer to questions will usually come back "it just is" and (ii) they lack the patience after their long day at work, they just can't be arsed... and who could blame them? They didn't sign up for teaching us Finnish, so refusing to hear would not always work, certainly not in my case.

I think you might have been misreading my suggestion a bit. I was proposing that method primarily for building one’s everyday vocabulary: learning the Finnish names for all those silly little things, concepts, and actions you encounter in your daily life... words like vessaharja, lampunvarjostin, kuorsata, or ovenkarmi... as well as getting to know various everyday idioms. And, above all, getting immersed in a “Finnish only” environment in a “safe” and totally voluntary way where you’re in control of the situation. I didn’t mean to suggest it would be a great way of grinding your grammar or deepening your analytical knowledge of the language (which, as you say, are goals better achieved by other means.)

Of course, “forcing” it on one’s spouse by not “hearing” what he says if he says it in the “wrong” language was more of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion than serious advice... but if you have agreed to try something like this, that could nonetheless serve as a reminder... that is, if he is initially forgetting about it and slipping out of his expected role as a “Finnish only” speaker, or just plain trying to take the easy way out.

And I didn’t mean that such language immersion would need to be observed in a ridiculously strict and all-encompassing way, either. You could have designated “off days” or “off hours”, scheduling them whichever way you please... or perhaps you’d just like to have a random “Finnish only” day every now and then (say, every Wednesday and Saturday!), instead of having the immersion experiment “on” continuously. To each their own!

[*]Hanging around in a Finnish chatroom (on IRC, perhaps), or having conversations with Finnish acquaintances (in Finnish, of course) via instant messaging?

:thumbsup: and :thumbsdown: I spend quite enough time on this place. Do people still use IRC?

Sure. Why wouldn’t they? (Do you mean there is some viable alternative for it? :)

Of course, with IRC being the grand-daddy of all Internet-based real-time text chat systems, talk notwithstanding, it is bound a bit more “underground”, “anarchistic”, and “technical” than the more recently introduced messaging systems that are being offered as (would-be) alternatives these days (by this, I mean the corporate-teat-suckling, proprietary-protocol-using new kids on the block; collectively known as “instant messaging”...) But then again, IRC – which is not to be confused with IRC-galleria; a different thing altogether – has never really been truly “in the mainstream” as far as the general public is concerned, so what else is new!

My local IRCNet server says:
There are 86003 users and 7 services on 44 servers
147 operators online
18 unknown connections
44930 channels formed
I have 7213 users, 0 services and 1 servers

My local QuakeNet server says:
There are 35 users and 131357 invisible on 43 servers
85 operator(s) online
25 unknown connection(s)
102183 channels formed
I have 11195 clients and 2 servers

EFNet:
There are 9950 users and 46385 invisible on 58 servers
378 IRC Operators online
26750 channels formed
I have 1244 clients and 2 servers

Freenode:
There are 28294 listed and 21060 unlisted users on 29 servers
43 flagged staff members
19685 channels formed
I have 4493 clients and 0 servers

OFTC.net:
There are 24 users and 5710 invisible on 22 servers
22 IRC Operators online
5 unknown connection(s)
1461 channels formed
I have 734 clients and 1 servers

(There are dozens of other IRC networks, of course, but those are the ones where I currently hang around.)

Finnish IRC channels can be best found on IRCnet and QuakeNet.

[kalmisto]

Don't forget Haluatko naida minua/ut. It's a fun mistake to make I swear.

What is the difference in meaning between "Tapaan sinut huomenna" and "Tapan sinut huomenna" ?

You mentioned that you studied Finnish one year in high-school ? Where was that ?
There is a high-school somewhere near Chicago where that is possible but I do not remember the name of the school.

[Jukka Aho]

And I think these mythical creatures who have learned Finnish in 6 months do not exist. I am sure there are a few, but it always a friend of a friend. Or, an exchange student from Brazil.

Now I’m having some regrets that I didn’t videotape Ricardo (a Brazilian exchange student who spent a year in our class back in lukio days and “got” the language during the summer vacation) speaking his fluent Finnish back in the day...

[Rob A.]

Well...i think a signficant amount of self-assertiveness is definitely part of the language-learning mix... if it's important to you to learn the language, then it's important...and don't let anyone put you off...

Here's an interesting link I first posted sometime ago...and I see the guy has updated it rather nicely since I was last in there...rather interesting and the webmaster appears to be quite a character....

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/about.html

I like the stuff about Cardinal Mezzofanti...


Here are a few excerpts that kind of show why discussing languages is always a bit difficult...because language is so personal, everyone is kind of opinionated, whether or not they know what they are talking about...

The articles on this website reflect my personal experiences with languages and those of visitors who either kindly submitted articles or discussed them in the forum. You are free not to agree with any of the content of the website. It does not purport to be a coldly objective encyclopedia, nor to be a bland politically correct brochure meant to please everybody. I made this website to share my enthusiasm for languages and encourage self-study of languages.

English is not my mother tongue and I had to learn it the hard way with books and a well-worn dictionary. Also, I make mistakes and have an accent in all the languages I speak, even in French. This means you should not be surprised if you find an occasional typo - don't hesitate to let me know when you find one.

It seems that this website has caused rather intense reactions in some people. If the mere existence of multilingual people insults you, I think this is not the right website for you. I sometimes receive curious emails, some asking me 'to retract my statement that Latin is a dead language' [sic], others threatening me because I called somebody's mother tongue 'a dialect' rather than 'a regional language' or that I 'must be insane if you think Spanish is easier than French' or that 'The fact that you say English is easy to learn is a clear proof you don't know what you are talking about'. Please be considerate and factual and just let me know why you think something should be corrected - I promise I'll do my best.

People always feel that the difficulty ratings I give to their mother tongue is too low. 'It is much more difficult than you say' , they say, although they never had to actually learn it as a foreign language. Well, those difficulty ratings, as limited as they are, come from either personal experiences, reference from 'Les Langages de l'humanité', a high-quality language encyclopedia with a similar 5 star rating of language difficulty and from discussions on the language forum. I'll be glad to reconsider difficulty ratings if there are precise arguments you are willing to discuss.


And here's what he has to say about Finnish:

Finnish: Difficulty: *****
Probably the most difficult European languages to be learned...

Introduction
Usefulness: A huge proportion of Finnish speakers have at least basic English, and many of them have excellent English. All in all, I couldn't say Finnish is "'useful" but if you are spending significant time in Finland, it will be worthwhile.
Beauty: With soft consonants and a fine range of vowels, Finnish can be a nicely melodic language. Unfortunately, many speakers, especially men, tend to lapse into a monotone.
Chic factor: Probably none ! Even in Finland, the locals find it so hard to believe you speak their language that they will quickly switch to English unless you persevere.
Speakers: Around 5 million people in Finland and a few tens of thousand in the rest of the world
Countries: Finland ! You can get by pretty well with it in Estonia too...
Regional Variations: The variations are confined to the spoken language. There are some quite marked variations within Finland, but the standard version will get you round everywhere. The written language is uniform.
Travel: Finland is a beautiful country - spacious, clean, and civilised. The lakes and forests are wonderful. The winters are cold, but offer excellent winter-sports - or just snowman-building!
Culture: Not much Finnish culture has made it to the rest of the world. One example if Väinö Linna's novel "The Unknown Soldier". Finland's best know cultural exports - Sibelius and Tove Janssen (Muumins) - were/are Swedish speakers !


...I'd like to hear how the native speakers respond to these comments...

[Pursuivant]

Finnish with a chic factor? yeah, desperately so

[Jukka Aho]

Here's an interesting link I first posted sometime ago... [...]
...I'd like to hear how the native speakers respond to these comments...

I don’t have much to add or correct... except his assessment of the number of Finnish speakers (“Around 5 million people in Finland and a few tens of thousand in the rest of the world”) might be a little bit on the low side. One usually sees these estimates ranging from “5.5 million” to “nearly 6 million”.

I would have expected to see sauna mentioned in the “Culture” section (especially as it is one of the few Finnish words that have been adopted to other languages and that website was all about languages) and could have added some other stereotypical “Finnish cultural exports” or tendencies to the list myself.