Separate swimming times for women based on religion.

[onkko]

Prettier women

They have that in Tallinn, i and my friend agreed that they probably send all ugly ones to siberia or something, random estonian guy disagreed and said they are just send out of town

[Upphew]

Aww, don't be sad. (unless you are sad 'cause someone ordered rain for teh Jussi)

[onkko]

Aww, don't be sad. (unless you are sad 'cause someone ordered rain for teh Jussi)

Dont mind of rain, theres saying "sen kesä kuivaa minkä kasteleeki" and alcohol helps too

[Karhunkoski]

Integration must mean just that, INTEGRATION, without special treatment in any shape or form. Once special treatment is handed out, just where do you draw the line?

These ridiculous rulings by wannabe do-gooders just result in people getting peed off with ALL immigrants, and this further hampers effective integration. The other spin-off is that far right parties get more political power, and I don't want that either.

Integration - YES

Special treatment - NO

[Pursuivant]

Not ze problem. We haven here ze special train for ze special treatment.

[network_engineer]

Also integration does not mean that people have to give up their own religious beliefs as long as it does not break any laws.

Certainly, integration may not mean the above. But in this case, and this particular religion has no specific authority and practices varies from region to region. In most cases, religions and traditions tend to inter-twine. So, if one claims that FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) is part of their religion and done with a pair of blunt scissors, that should be fine too? Let me say this and I can only say what I have seen. E.g. Muslims girls from India, study, swim, jog, etc, do not get any special privileges. They do not impose any such requirements. The neighboring country Pakistan, it is very different. However, Bangladesh is a bit similar to India, a little more conservative than India, but nowhere the limitations as imposed by some countries in the middle-east.

So, what is the true basis for the segregation? Religion? Region? Combination? That is going to be very difficult in the long run.

What next? Segregated classrooms? Separate hospitals? Separated food shops? In would lead to a parallel society - one at odds with each other. Take a look at what happened, was it in Minnesota... e.g. taxi drivers refusing to ferry passengers who had alcohol in the baggage? So, next, no ferrying passengers who are not circumcised?

Where does it end?

As immigrants, it is their duty to integrate. And if it is a question of a culture which goes against the principles of the society they are living in, they have two choices: Accept and live OR leave and live.

[maurine]

Aww, don't be sad. (unless you are sad 'cause someone ordered rain for teh Jussi)

Dont mind of rain, theres saying "sen kesä kuivaa minkä kasteleeki" and alcohol helps too

yeah i wish i could gulp lots of that, it sucks that i have a night shift. while most of the population will be drinking, partying, dancing, sex, eating e.t.c

[maurine]

they requested separate swimming times because of their religion and beliefs, Islam discourages social interaction between unmarried or unrelated men and women when they are alone, but not all interaction between men and women. I know most non Muslim will say this is BS but the society too is trying to be flexible too. According to the ombudsman they are trying to help them adjust living in Finland.......yeah by allowing separate swimming times

[onkko]

yeah i wish i could gulp lots of that, it sucks that i have a night shift. while most of the population will be drinking, partying, dancing, sex, eating e.t.c

aww
You need to buy some alcohol so you can start when your shift stops! Well atleast you like that in payday

[onkko]

I want to see english who wants carpet in toilet because of his "culture", i think this is as ridiculous as carpet would be.

[maurine]

yeah i wish i could gulp lots of that, it sucks that i have a night shift. while most of the population will be drinking, partying, dancing, sex, eating e.t.c

aww
You need to buy some alcohol so you can start when your shift stops! Well atleast you like that in payday

yeah and get fired too, how nice

[onkko]

yeah i wish i could gulp lots of that, it sucks that i have a night shift. while most of the population will be drinking, partying, dancing, sex, eating e.t.c

aww
You need to buy some alcohol so you can start when your shift stops! Well atleast you like that in payday

yeah and get fired too, how nice

You cant get fired if you start celebrating afrer work

[Karhunkoski]

Of course we all know that the ombudsman's statement is just an excuse. The real reason "lies" elsewhere, as Europe's rulers fall over eachother with embarassing attempts to appear "culturally sensitve".

I wondered how other advanced Western style democracies had handled this problem, so here are results for comparison.

New Zealand had a similar case in 2006/2007. The reason given was that Muslim women had nowhere to exercise, and were getting fat and unfit (= a drain on the nation in medical costs).

The city of Oregan also had a case in 2008, where it was argued that Muslim women needed somewhere to exercise. Here the response :

“We can’t discriminate against religion; the other is we can’t discriminate in favor of religion,” Portland City Attorney Harry Auerbach said.

“It would essentially violate the rights of male lifeguards if we only hired female lifeguards for certain duty,” he added.

I thought to check out Islamonline.net, to see what their advice is:

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, first and foremost, we commend your interest in getting yourself well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam. May Allah keep us all firm in the straight Path, Ameen!

It’s the duty of the committed Muslim woman to set a good example in morality and good ethics for all people. Being a Muslim living in the West doesn’t make difference in this regard. So, it’s your duty to preserve your dignity and honor by compliance with the teachings of Islam.

Answering the question you posed, Sheikh Faisal Mawlawi, Deputy Chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, states:

"Giving the fact that such swimming pool involves opposite sexes, and with the fact no one can conceive that there exists swimming suits for women that do not stick to their bodies when they get wet and cover all their bodies save the face and hands, then the original rule that women are not permitted to swim in public swimming pools is still in effect.

Muslim women in Western countries should demand separate swimming pools for women. They have succeeded in this in some German cities where separate swimming pools have been designed for women at specific times.

Therefore, in all Western countries, Muslim women should ask for this. If this demand was not achieved, a Muslim woman is not allowed to swim in public and mixed swimming pools."

Now, it becomes crystal clear that a Muslim woman isn’t allowed to swim in public and mixed swimming pools, while she can swim in a women-only swimming pool where men are not allowed.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503545706


The next step will probably be new rules to accommodate those who don't want to sell alcohol at the supermarket checkout:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 558198.ece

Although interestingly, two senior muslims disagree with the refusal, and refer to the refusers as "unprofessional".

It is all really rather confusing.

[Rip]

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
---
Muslim women in Western countries should demand separate swimming pools for women. They have succeeded in this in some German cities where separate swimming pools have been designed for women at specific times.

Therefore, in all Western countries, Muslim women should ask for this. If this demand was not achieved, a Muslim woman is not allowed to swim in public and mixed swimming pools."

Kind of funny that here we have Muslims demanding separate swimming pools (or sifts) for women in general (nothing is said that mixing with infidel women would be a problem) , but the Finnish, presumably Christian or atheist, officials decide to supply swimming times for Muslim women specifically. And this is supposed to help Integration (which the last time I checked was kind of like opposite to segregation)

[pierrot]

Hi all,

Very depressing. You can actually find the discussion in Finnish here

I posted my own views on this as well.

Basically, Personally, I do NOT agree with the respectable ombudsman's views on this. I would even opine that this is a very negative situation. If at all, this further allows for a segregated society and promotes segregation than integration, particularly keeping immigrant women in mind. It is the need of Finland that they [the immigrants] learn to accept the rules of their current society. Otherwise very soon, this is going to lead to further requirements based on "special" needs.

Finland is certainly a country with freedoms, freedoms includes leaving the country if you do not agree with the society and the values and principles it runs by.

Personally, I think this is a step in the wrong direction. If the immigrants are not willing to integrate, then there are other options available to them. After all, if I had a desire to chase the "American dream", I would not be chasing it in Ghana, India, China or elsewhere than America. What part of this is so hard to understand?

Their very values have created problems in their society and home country.

I am even thinking of sending feedback to the ombudsman on this. I also hold negative views on immigrants pushing the city to pay for teaching their native languages to their kids. I often ask them: Why should your kid be more special [compared to the average Finnish kid] when it comes to teaching costs. Sure, it is one's freedom to teach one's language and your culture to their kids, but why burden the tax payer?

And no, with regard to one of the earlier posts, it is not good. Multiple societies that are at odds with each other do no good for the society. If multiple societies do not conflict, then there is no problem, but this gives the view that you can create and maintain conflicting divisions in society. A slight stricter view would [in a manner] ensure that well-meaning immigrants would be the ones moving in here.

100% approval for this from my side.