Foreigners in the finnish workplace

[Mook]

You have to love the way people jump to these wild assumptions - it's a shame that 'wild assumptions' isn't the topic of my story.

We're actually planning to run a series of stories on different aspect of worklife in Finland, and one issue we thought might be interesting to look at was how foreigners who have jobs here feel about their status in the company, the way they are treated, and so forth. I have no idea where the story will be largely positive or negative - though my approach is usually to feature both points of view to some extent.

Is that biased, subjective, based on preconceived ideas, or inherently offensive?

Pesonally, I think not - but I think the one we do see here is a real sentivity about this kind of topic. Which I'm happy about, of course.

Come on... As you should know, the way questions in a survey are phrased can radically affect the outcome. Your questions are not neutral.

You then go on to compound this in your next couple of postings

Thanks Mook, that's good to hear.

I certainly agree that it takes two to tango, but there are clearly issues in some Finnish companies which pay lip service to being international, while still pursuing the 'no communication, no feedback' model more common to Finnish companies. While I think that also means international workers learn not to take 0 communication as a personal insult, I also think Finnish managers need to adapt to the needs of an international staff.

I don't know if you release this, but the results you get with this approach may well result in less foreigners being employed in Finland if, for instance, it's clear that they need special handling.

All the comments here basically result in the same thing: "please be positive...."

[rinso]

I don't know if you release this, but the results you get with this approach may well result in less foreigners being employed in Finland if, for instance, it's clear that they need special handling.

Good to mention this Mook.
I often have the feeling journalists don't realize the impact their articles can have, when they consider "informing the public" as their noble mission.

[Soda 3.0]

Rinso -

Again, if you would like to hve you experiences or thoughts represented - feel free to answer the questions. The point here is not to 'inform the public', the point is to analyze the question and see what comes up, perhaps to create discussion.

Mook -

the results you get with this approach may well result in less foreigners being employed in Finland if, for instance, it's clear that they need special handling.

If there really are managers out there who haven't realised that foreigners come from a myriad of different work cultures, and in many cases could be more motivated more effectively using techniques (e.g. feedback) which are less common in Finland than they are in many other cultures, then I'm sure my story may come as a shock. But really - that's just silly, isn't it?

All I'm hearing in your comments so far is "we mustn't talk about this", which is an aspect of this topic I do feel the story should cover.

[Mook]

You could right the same stuff but focus on people who "Overcame the challenge of adapting to the Finnish work culture". About how they were helped by good managers, etc.

[Mook]

All I'm hearing in your comments so far is "we mustn't talk about this", which is an aspect of this topic I do feel the story should cover.

We mustn't help you create another Finland/Finn bashing article for Helsinki Times/6-degress ?

[interleukin]

I am sure it comes as a complete surprise to you, but there are actually foreigners who PREFER the Finnish way of doing things (that includes me). I know, you are in shock now and your whole world view is falling apart. In your initial questions, you completely exclude the concept of such people existing, and you just generally write really crappy interview questions. If you alienate half of your possible interview subjects just by your interview questions... I hope you have a daytime job in which you are more competent. Complaining about the replies you are getting is just pathetic, you started the thread and should have done it in a professional way from the start.

[Soda 3.0]

You could right the same stuff but focus on people who "Overcame the challenge of adapting to the Finnish work culture". About how they were helped by good managers, etc.

Yes, and actually that is a good idea. I think we may actually have done that not so long ago, but it is a good idea.

Interleukin -

Actually, I've heard a few people say that before. Which makes sense to me - it may be that some people drawn to Finland have also done so at least partially because they enjoy the Finnish way of doing things and to some extent I would include myself in that category.

It's just unfortunate on this thread that one or two people have been so hypersensitive and so quick to jump to conclusions about my 'agenda', that they didn't actually relate those kind of comments or experiences in such a way that I might have been able to quote them.

[Soda 3.0]

We mustn't help you create another Finland/Finn bashing article for Helsinki Times/6-degress ?

Ummmm.....you do realise most of the staff of these 2 publications ARE Finns, right?

[onkko]

We mustn't help you create another Finland/Finn bashing article for Helsinki Times/6-degress ?

Ummmm.....you do realise most of the staff of these 2 publications ARE Finns, right?

Alexis Kouros isnt and his opinions are well known. Kenen leipää syöt sen lauluja laulat...

[hackoff]

Same here i worked for an IT company as a consultant and i had many different projects that did involve different project managers.

when i had to directly report to a Fin then everything went well , pretty well . Of course no feedback was given to me of things are done well but very comprehensible.

when i had to work with a non-Fin manager, it did feel like being a "slave" , maybe they tend to work the same way they do back home.

Also did experience non direct mangers ( foreigners ) to come and give orders just because they were hierarchically better.

I think, we foreigners , we just need to change and be like Fins. They have been doing it for long time with success .
the again we are their "guests"

[Soda 3.0]

Onkko -

Aleksi isn't actually the editor of either publication.

As a journalist I have published material in something like 20 magazines and newspapers around the world, and write regularly for six publications in four countries. I have never once been told to write a story a particular way, to promote or attack any particular person or view point, to spin a story one way or the other, or to stick to any kind of political or philosophical angle. It may happen in some publications, but none I've ever worked for.

I know people like to believe that all media and all journalists are involved in some evil campaign to promote particular 'agendas' or 'lifestyles', but I can honestly say that I've never experienced anything remotely like that, and outside of Pravda or maybe Fox News, I doubt it actually happens.

I know there will be an article in the next Six Degrees supporting Jutta Urpilainen's stand on "when in rome" comments about foreigners working here - it'll be interesting to see if any of those commenting here will be willing to come back and admit they might have got the wrong end of the stick about Six Degrees's editoral stance as a result.

[Soda 3.0]

Same here i worked for an IT company as a consultant and i had many different projects that did involve different project managers.

when i had to directly report to a Fin then everything went well , pretty well . Of course no feedback was given to me of things are done well but very comprehensible.

when i had to work with a non-Fin manager, it did feel like being a "slave" , maybe they tend to work the same way they do back home.

Also did experience non direct mangers ( foreigners ) to come and give orders just because they were hierarchically better.

I think, we foreigners , we just need to change and be like Fins. They have been doing it for long time with success .
the again we are their "guests"

Hackoff -

Excellent and interesting comments - I will use those. Much appreciated.

[DMC]

I think, we foreigners , we just need to change and be like Fins.

True in some cases, but not all. Some people are employed here because of their specialist skills. Their employers want them precisely because they do things differently / better than the available workers (Finns). Sure, there are jobs where the best chance for a foreigner is to blend in and do things the Finnish way. There are also jobs where the best approach is to exploit skills/techniques/attitudes learnt elsewhere.

[Soda 3.0]

I think, we foreigners , we just need to change and be like Fins.

True in some cases, but not all. Some people are employed here because of their specialist skills. Their employers want them precisely because they do things differently / better than the available workers (Finns). Sure, there are jobs where the best chance for a foreigner is to blend in and do things the Finnish way. There are also jobs where the best approach is to exploit skills/techniques/attitudes learnt elsewhere.

Indeed, and well put.

Language training is perhaps the obvious example, but also in areas like advertising or HR, foreigners have likely been hired because they bring a different dimension to the office. That may cause some friction at times, but I think a forward-looking company can also benefit from the diversity of styles and opinions without anyone feeling threatened or undervalued.

[kentan]

. I think, we foreigners , we just need to change and be like Fins.They have been doing it for long time with success .

wow there, ...yes, but they have been doing it in Finland, communicating with people who use the same communication patterns and codes. (of course there are exceptions)
I don't like the way your questions are posed Soda. french, american, estonian, russian, somalian, japanese,...we are indeed all foreigners in this country, but we will all react different to a finnish management because we all have different values, background and communication patterns. So to me, the question is irrelevant, unless it is backed up by a study breaking down the results by nationalities, line of work, etc..