This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???????

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Pursuivant
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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:43 am

Brynne wrote:I've got a friend who studied International Business in a Finnish institute and has lived in Finland for 6 years or so, but can't get a job because of the language.
Even they spoke fluent Finnish thats about an useless a degree as you get, maybe one can score a job selling magazines on telephone...that degree is a ploy by the schools to get money from the government as it sounds all exiting and impressive - so I suggest people to apply study in an ammattikoulu to get a real job ;)
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"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

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Pursuivant
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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:46 am

Oh Rob, you pass off salmon, while people not parlez pas have had to eat calf brains... :lol:
Last edited by Pursuivant on Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Brynne » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:03 pm

Pursuivant - Yes, actually. ::cough:: I've heard that quite a lot about that particular degree. Though I think it's rather silly to study any degree in English, anyway, because then you have to relearn everything in Finnish as well as just learn Finnish in general (instead of learning Finnish better while you study in Finnish), and by the time you can actually speak well enough to get a job, you've had a couple years between school and work to forget everything you learned! At least that's how I was thinking about it when I made the decision.. plus, I had no interest in international business. xD

Rob - Well I didn't even want to go to a grocery store at first alone because I was so scared that there would be some problem and I wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone there. And after my first Finnish language course, it was suggested to me to get a harjoittelu place, but I sat on my butt the whole summer mainly because I thought that: why would anyone want me as a harjoittelija? I thought they would just be annoyed having to try to communicate with me and I'd be more trouble than I was worth (okay, it's not like I didn't want a summer vacation, too, but that was just a plus that came with my fear). I felt like if I was doing free work, I'd be imposing on them somehow and just be a big annoyance. It may have been true, too, but it sure didn't help me any. I've since discovered that I learn a lot more a lot faster when I'm put/put myself into really uncomfortable situations where I'm forced to try to do things out of my comfort zone.

And you have to remember, too, that the guy behind the counter at the train station does get paid to help people, no matter if they are still learning the language (and yeah, sounds like he was having a bad day in general :D ). Not saying you should purposefully cause people trouble, but I, at least, have found that in the past even when I spoke very little very broken Finnish, people were relieved to listen to that instead of having to try their English on me. xD Plus, at least it shows you're trying, rather than just assuming that you should be able to get by on English and don't need to learn the native language. I think most people, especially in Finland, can respect that (because I've gotten the impression at least from Finns, that they meet a lot of people who don't).

Oh, and that reminds me. I have a story like that, too. I was in a cute little flower shop just a few weeks ago, and I first said I wanted two of the same type, but then I said actually no, I want one of this and just one of those. The woman took two of the same one anyway, as well as the third. She said something about "let's see how these look," so I thought maybe she was just wanting to choose the better of the two, since she had been rifling through them looking for the two best in the first place. I wasn't sure, so I reminded her at the desk that I just wanted one of those. When she started wrapping the other one up, too, I tried to tell her again, but she didn't seem to react until her work partner said it to her. I felt pretty bad, especially since I had changed my mind after first asking for two of those. :P I don't know if I was really speaking that poorly, or if she just didn't realize what I meant, but at least she hadn't totally finished wrapping it by the time she understood.

I'm also working now at a daycare as a harjoittelija for the summer, and there is one little girl there who, when I have to ask what she said because I didn't understand her the first time, gets this really annoyed looking face and yells it loudly like I am hard of hearing. :D Most of them don't mind, though. I get my speech corrected by 5-year-olds, which is actually really good practice (especially for puhekieli!). ;)

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:19 pm

Kids are the best as they don't "try to be polite" but correct immediately.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Rob A. » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:57 am

Brynne wrote:...
Rob - Well I didn't even want to go to a grocery store at first alone because I was so scared that there would be some problem and I wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone there. And after my first Finnish language course, it was suggested to me to get a harjoittelu place, but I sat on my butt the whole summer mainly because I thought that: why would anyone want me as a harjoittelija? I thought they would just be annoyed having to try to communicate with me and I'd be more trouble than I was worth (okay, it's not like I didn't want a summer vacation, too, but that was just a plus that came with my fear). I felt like if I was doing free work, I'd be imposing on them somehow and just be a big annoyance. It may have been true, too, but it sure didn't help me any. I've since discovered that I learn a lot more a lot faster when I'm put/put myself into really uncomfortable situations where I'm forced to try to do things out of my comfort zone.
:D You sound like you're a very nice person...and, yes, it seems the only way is just to keep trying, and keep getting "out of the comfort zone"...I just remind myself how I react if someone with poor English skills speaks to me....it is difficult and if I'm in hurry ...or I think communication is impossible, I, too, may not be all that patient... A few years ago I regularly had those cute little Japanese/Korean women asking me...usually, how to get somewhere...[It hasn't happened for a while, maybe the recession is keeping them at home, or maybe I'm starting to look like a grumpy old white guy...:D] But sometimes it was almost impossible to understand them....as P. would say it was enough to make your ears bleed....
Brynne wrote: And you have to remember, too, that the guy behind the counter at the train station does get paid to help people, no matter if they are still learning the language (and yeah, sounds like he was having a bad day in general :D )
Probably he was having a bad life....but really, he has probably answered the same question a gazillion times before...and to him it's obvious..."In front of the ticket office!!!!...Where else???...Five kilometres down the road???"...."Perkelen ulkomaalaiset!!"...or, in this case, "Maudits étrangers!!!"...
Brynne wrote: I'm also working now at a daycare as a harjoittelija for the summer, and there is one little girl there who, when I have to ask what she said because I didn't understand her the first time, gets this really annoyed looking face and yells it loudly like I am hard of hearing. :D Most of them don't mind, though. I get my speech corrected by 5-year-olds, which is actually really good practice (especially for puhekieli!). ;)
Ah yes...another favourite tactic of the impatient...if the foreigner doesn't understand the first time around, then yell it out, maybe it will sink in then....:D

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Brynne » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:51 am

Rob A. wrote:Ah yes...another favourite tactic of the impatient...if the foreigner doesn't understand the first time around, then yell it out, maybe it will sink in then....:D
Sometimes when I've even been talking to adults and have asked them if they could please repeat themselves more slowly, they just say it louder. :D

There was one guy that was in a class that I was practicing in part time through my school, who was one of the few people who tried to talk to me without me starting the conversation first, which was nice, but I never understood him. I honestly thought at first that he spoke some kind of dialect, but now I think he just had a bit of an odd voice and spoke really fast (and probably lots of puhekieli, which at the time I almost couldn't understand at all). I would try all the time to ask him to speak more slowly, but he would always repeat himself with absolutely no change to his voice whatsoever. Not louder, not slower, not anything. :D You don't want to have to ask someone like 5 times to repeat themselves and still not understand. The rest of the time I was there, I would just sort of smile and nod to him like, "uhuh," whenever he said something. xD

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Pursuivant » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:08 pm

"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Brynne » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:20 pm

Oh my god! I watched that movie with my husband like 6 months or a year ago when I was feeling so frustrated with Finnish. And I was like, "WHAT?! Oh yeah, that's exactly how it works! You just listen for awhile and it all suddenly sounds like English!" "Gee, sure wish I could do that!" I was so annoyed with the movie after that. :D I kept complaining how that's so unrealistic and "How long did it take him? Like a week and suddenly he's fluent!?"

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by faithslayer » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:40 am

ah yes if only it could b that easy ! I heard that Google are investing in their Google Translate software. They're developing voice recognition software etc. Very Star Trek. I'm emigrating to Finland in the next 3 months &after reading this forum i think i must study & learn Finnish b4 trying to get a job. I'm currently employed in the UK as a test manager. i have the means to pay for courses so wondered if you had any suggestions on courses to help me master it? :)
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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Brynne » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:28 pm

Depending on the courses, you don't have to pay. In a way, I'm lucky that I came to Finland so young and educated, because it meant I could go to full-time classes (6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week of nothing but Finnish). Those are free, and KELA actually pays you while you attend them as your integration benefit (which lasts a total of 3 years). You should look into getting into suomen kielen perustason kurssi first. Mine, at least, lasted about 5 months. After that, I did VALMA (basically a language course that also included math, Finnish history, culture, etc., intended to help foreigners get into school afterwards). That lasted a full school year, and it's meant to put you on the same level as the intermediate (keskitason) course. Then there is also the option to do the advanced course, though I opted not to (it was my option B if I didn't get in to any schools yet). I can't say if it would be better to go to that first or not, but I at least don't think you need that perfect Finnish just to get a job. Or well, it probably depends on the job, I suppose.

Anyway, though, when you register at the työvoimatoimisto, you'll make up a plan there and you can ask about these things and apply to the soonest class.

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by blaugrau » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:37 pm

Let me just add that not just anyone can get on the Kela-sponsored immigration courses. According to their rules, it is possible only if you have a "valid" reason for moving to Finland without a job -- and that's having been married to a Finnish citizen or lived together for 2 years with a Finnish citizen common-law spouse prior to moving to Finland.

Although I know one person who miraculously managed to get on the course without meeting these criteria, but I'd think that's very very uncommon.

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Brynne » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:03 am

I actually didn't know that. Though I also know lots of people who have been in my courses because, for instance, their (non-Finnish) spouse moved to Finland for a job. I also have a half-Finnish friend (has Finnish citizenship) who's reason for moving at the time was because she got bored of where she was living at the time and decided to see how Finland was. And she got into the class basically immediately after her arrival. I have a feeling they consider Finns a big priority above any other immigrants.

But yeah, I guess it might depend on why you are moving here, Faithslayer?

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by blaugrau » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:08 am

Brynne wrote:I actually didn't know that. Though I also know lots of people who have been in my courses because, for instance, their (non-Finnish) spouse moved to Finland for a job. I also have a half-Finnish friend (has Finnish citizenship) who's reason for moving at the time was because she got bored of where she was living at the time and decided to see how Finland was. And she got into the class basically immediately after her arrival. I have a feeling they consider Finns a big priority above any other immigrants.

But yeah, I guess it might depend on why you are moving here, Faithslayer?
The point is that you have to be registered as "permanently" living in Finland when you're an unemployed immigrant in order to qualify for the Kela-sponsored integration-courses. This is the case only if you're moving here because of your spouse (who is Finnish or who can also be non-Finnish but moving here because of a job). If you have Finnish citizenship, then you also qualify as permanently resident immediately after arrival, so that's why your friend got on the course.

If you come here to experiment whether your long-distance-relationship with a Finn works out in real life and you don't have a job lined up, you won't be considered permanently resident and you will have next to no chance to get on the course. The reason is that the course is basically a measure for those on the dole, and in order to qualify for Finnish unemployment benefits you have to be considered to be a permanent resident...

I think it's theoretically possible to get on those courses without the Finnish "family ties", if you have had a job before in Finland and qualify for all the social benefits, and then become unemployed and in need of language-training.

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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Rosilla » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:20 pm

I know one woman in Canada who has been trying to master the language for about 20 yrs taking several courses over the years and also by living and working in Finland and she still feels her skills are lacking and just when she thinks she has it, the dialect changes and she has to start over. Even my mother who was born and raised in Finland says she has trouble when she goes back, mostly with speaking to the younger generations as the language has changed so much in the last 30 yrs.
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Re: This finnish language, why is it no one can master it???

Post by Danidan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:02 pm

One reason why it's hard to learn IMHO is that Finnish people never let you speak it... At least that's been my Helsinki experience for several years... After 3 sentences in Finnish they finally accept to reply in Finnish. It takes a lot of self-esteem to insist that long...


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