removed

[Hank W.]

The thing is they are endangering lives (!) <= been too much with Americans by outsourcing stuff like translating manuals. The recent example of a kids' wading pool:

http://jenkkireki.te.nu/uimaallas/

Now would you want to let your kids play with something like this?

Set in immediately!

1.Finding one clean and open place, move in sharp objects like small pebbling. Draw the puddle out and spread. Notice, dont spread on the soft bottom, but on the hard rubber back.

2. Take his rubber-back and spread.

3. Shower 2cm high wota first and place the rubber back and the puddle bottom parts in place. (Three people fit nicely if you shower 183 or 244 cm high wota. ) Shower the puddle full after that. Whence the water surface is 6,5 cm under the top, make tap go shutten. The rubber back will erect showering.

4. Push the rubber back in when you withdraw.

Same thing when the "script kiddies" do web interfaces. About outsourcing component coding... well, guess where the money is? Not those guys who code them, its those guys who make the OOD and coding instructions. Outsourced coding you'll see more and more all over. Its just the idiots in charge who can't see that not everything can be outsourced.

[jcooper]

Yeah I agree Hank, but the fact is from my outsourcing experience many of these companies have !"#¤% cheap labour and !"#¤% quality also. I know for instance many Indians have a good reputation, well in the US. And back in the boom when we could not get enough developers in Ireland we got a few guys from Puna, thing is no body checked their references and they were cowboys. Academic credentials did not check out and none of the companies they claimed to have worked for even existed.

Then in my last job in the Netherlands we had two groups one in India and the other in Thailand. Both where crap, the idea was to do the OOAD, but the old saying goes, "You pay peanuts and you get monkeys". IMHO anyone who is decent has long left India or wherever for better,pay, salary and working conditions. Happens in Europer too, the brain drain. None of them knew anything about UML or MDA and in the end we had to chuck the lot, we accomplished more with 3 developers rather than an army of useless ones.

The fact in my opinion most software engineers everywhere are suspect, many I've worked with know little more than the basic keywird set and design is a word associated with Ferrari. Just I guess some of the outsourced companies are suspect is nothing unusual.

[Hank W.]

I guess the "cream of the crop" left already to the US during the Y2K boom. Same thing with Russians (all the mainframe dudes). Indians have some excellent academic institutions (and if you look at a computer book, the authors names are all from that region.) It might also be a problem with business cultures etc. Like a Finn can go straight up and say "I have no clue what this is all about" while in some other culture the answer is "yes yes" and then the outcome is a disaster. This kind of multinational teams you need 'cultural interpreters' there in between. Same as you need an interpreter between the 'monkey' and the 'man', i.e. client/coder (who is the monkey and who is the man depends on the viewpoint) or otherwise you get what you order. Literally. Heaven forbid an inter-cultural situation...

However yes, it is the "cowboys" that ruin the reputation. Also there is the problem of outsourcing being a lucrative business (heck, I'd forge documents if they offered me a job in the US, I've been on a SAP/R3 course... qualifies me? ).

Foreign qualifications are also always suspect (same thing in Finland), though from the Polytechnic I got a very good transcript that was
a) translated diploma
b) translated transcript
c) 2 page supplement explaining the educational system in Finland

Anyone in a Finnish Poytechnic be sure to get the original English transcripts from the school. Even if it costs you 50 euros, it'll cost 50 euros per page if you need to get them notarized later on...

Problem is with my current cv, I'm doing government subcontracting so it's basically a "blacked out" section what I do and have done. Can do general insinuations, but can't even tell people's position and phone# for reference... Fortunately, I'm not an 'engineer' I'm from the business-IT side - so I am not suspect

[BAT]

You quiet clearly imply I was being racist or derogatory to the groups you mention. Its difficult to believe you lecture in business english as your posts continually lack a coherent point and are both very insulting and patronising.

My posts were completely coherent.

I don't think an apology would do anything to change your attitude, but let's see if this satisfies you anyway. If you did not mean to point out "script kiddies" and "Indians" in a derogatory way - I apologise. Yes, I thought you were implying that they were undeserving of the work. And I know I am not the only person to have also gotten that impression.

Not once did I call you racist or say you had poor English.

Your previous post to Cory about Finnish language courses and this whole discussion shows that you can be quite insulting and aggressive. Here you have also insulted me that I am not fit for my work as a Business English lecturer, based on nothing but being unhappy with my responses to you.

Believe me Brendan, you won't be hearing from me again on this or any other matter. (And by the way, I am a woman not a man, and if you ask my students and my colleagues - they think I am quite a capable Business English lecturer.)

Sorry to everyone else for this unpleasant thread.

[sipiracha]

Hi,
Let me come in at this crucial moment when i am most needed to mitigate the hostility thats been flowing back n forth so far (and since I am the delegator of this post to begin with, i think i'm obliged to do that).

1. First of all, originally the post was meant as a Job Posting and a useful resource for unemployed specialists out there who eagerly seek work. And believe me, I still know plenty SAP specialists who can't dictate their terms anymore the way they used to 2 years ago. They're just as much part of the economic downturn as the rest of the IT bunch. Anyhow, point being, the post didn't receive any reply in responce to my original post. :cry:

2. Regarding the remarks made about the techie Indians sparking so much debate, its true we have to be very careful in making generalizations and especially when it comes to inter-racial comments, even when intentions are clean. I don't come from India, but honestly, it does pinch me a little when I'm categorized as just another techie guy from south asia. :cry:

No need to get me wrong, but I think that the reason most people in europe or usa probably only get to encounter Techie people from these places is not because they don't excell in other areas like finance, business, economics, humanities, or international affairs, but only because this is the only field where they are hired in foreign countries. Afterall, how many Indians or Pakistanis do you know who are in manegerial/executive roles in a multi national company? Or even in a company like Nokia. Its not that they lack the skills, mind you, some of the best brains in the top US universities and deans of MBA programs are Indians. Its just that there's still a cultural and racial divide between the west and south-asia. However things are bit different in England and the US, since the integration rate of asians over there is much higher and much deeper. So I guess, it'll take time before things start picking up in the rest of europe, and there is less stereotyping.

Anyway...all said, lets not end on a bad note and make up. No hard feeling. If an asian like me doesn't take those remarks personally, the others shouldn't either.

Cheerz.

P.S. I'm still in the process of finding SAP logistics experts, so please, any interested parties out there contact me asap.

[Hank W.]

P.S. I'm still in the process of finding SAP logistics experts, so please, any interested parties out there contact me asap.

If you need ABAP coders and/or trainees, the HELIA business polytechnic is IIRC one of the only places that trains people on this. Of course, yes, everyone needs the 25 year old guy with 10 years experience, but how do you expect anyone to get any experience if you don't hire them in the first place. They also have in HELIA the median age of students older (like I was in my 30's) so they're maybe new with SAP but not necessarily new with IT.

And yes, I took SAP as well, and won't touch it with a 10 foot pole ...big words - guess what I'll be tinkerin next year

Now who'd need a WebFocus developer

[funnyman]

script kiddies and indians

May be you can take a look at the skeletons in your closet instead of blaming others. Web development is almost dead right now(in terms of job potential and good money) and signs were present almost 3 years back that it wont last long and may be you should have started concentrating on server side or database much earlier. Also who is outsourcing the work, arent they the CEO's and big executives who want to cut costs and make more money for themselves at the cost of people like you and are defintely "non-indians" in your language. I think if you have anger then it should be towards those executives and CEO on either side and not towards cheap labor which is trying to survive. I dont think even those programmers make much money, its there "indian" bosses who keep a big chunk of the booty and same applies to "non-indian" bosses of the company which is outsourcing the work and who are willing to lay off there fellow co-workers for a new jaguar or porche.

As far as quality of work, I have worked with people from many parts of the world and some of them are very brilliant and some are just not upto the standards but it doesnt mean that i can categorize them as good or bad based on there nationality. Quality of work is mostly a personal trait and two people from the same country may show different work ethics, quality, productivity, honesty.

[Hank W.]

you should have started concentrating on server side or database much earlier.

I studied hypermedia and OOD as my majors in HELIA. Ended up doing embedded SQL reports and delved deep into the world of relatinal databases. Now I have an advantage as I'm a database analyst that can do the front end apps as well. Not much else done with the whole hypermedia thing since school

[Donald]

You quiet clearly imply I was being racist or derogatory to the groups you mention. Its difficult to believe you lecture in business english as your posts continually lack a coherent point and are both very insulting and patronising.

My posts were completely coherent.

I don't think an apology would do anything to change your attitude, but let's see if this satisfies you anyway. If you did not mean to point out "script kiddies" and "Indians" in a derogatory way - I apologise. Yes, I thought you were implying that they were undeserving of the work. And I know I am not the only person to have also gotten that impression.

Not once did I call you racist or say you had poor English.

Your previous post to Cory about Finnish language courses and this whole discussion shows that you can be quite insulting and aggressive. Here you have also insulted me that I am not fit for my work as a Business English lecturer, based on nothing but being unhappy with my responses to you.

Believe me Brendan, you won't be hearing from me again on this or any other matter. (And by the way, I am a woman not a man, and if you ask my students and my colleagues - they think I am quite a capable Business English lecturer.)

Sorry to everyone else for this unpleasant thread.

Hey BAT!

I think you are cool .. ....and never apologize for defending yourself... your adversary here could be a distant relations to Celucc... and we know HIS track record in education...

ohhhh Canada....

[distantspaces]

I went through this old but interesting thread and saw that someone here is unhappy about script kiddies and Indians. OK, I am an Indian and work here in Finland. I could comment a bit on the discussion...

Firstly, I am NOT a computer techie...surprise surprise. I know the feeling though, because everyone who walks up to me asks me about what kind of a computer programmer I am. Stereotypes...gotta live with that.

Why BAT sees my having to give up a job I love because it doesnt pay the rent as a source of sick enjoyment i.e "Hooray for script kiddies and indians" is rather baffling.

As mentioned already, it is your smart managers and CEOs who are your real "enemies", not the script kiddies/Indians. It is a global economy, let us get used to it. Businesses want to make profit, and I don't think they care much about whether you or I get to do the job we love.

Were you offended? or can you think of ANY way anyone would be offended by being called a 'script kiddie' or an 'indian'?

OK, I am not particularly offended, but I am not pleased either. Let us just say that in an international forum, one has to be very sensitive to how others might interpret your thoughts. Maybe what looks perfectly normal to you is derogatory for someone else. In this case, it felt to me that you are venting out your frustration on to a particular group of people. It does make me feel uneasy if it appears that I am being thought of as someone that is a "threat" to someone else.

So you see, I really don't get a sick pleasure out of knowing that someone is having to compete hard with people from my country. Instead it makes me feel a bit guilty. But we are both competing against the same things here. My job and skills are as much under threat from my Indian friends back home, as are yours.

Also, I don't think that just because someone agrees to work for less money means that his/her skills are not as good. Indians living in India are able to work for less because our country is cheaper to live in. Indians living in Finland (like me) would refuse to work for the salary that is paid to someone living in India. I know there are lots of people out there who are unskilled and cannot do a good job. But then, is it just Indians? Come to my office, and I would show you incompetent people from all over the world!

By the way, since I just recently applied for a work-permit, I would like to mention what my (Finnish) manager wrote to the labor office as a reason for employing a foreigner:
"He possesses unique skills in understanding of human behavior from a non-Finnish perspective. As a global company, cultural diversity in our otherwise Finnish team would help us design world class solutions and services for countries outside Europe."

This is just roughly translated, but it might give you some insight in to why cultural diversity is preferred in particular cases. I would like others to understand that just having a particular skillset does not make one eligible for a job. Some skills are not learnt, they are just inherited.

And well, it is just business...they want me because I would help them sell their stuff to more people...they make more money for themselves. If they find another Indian with the same skills, willing to work for less than what I do, maybe they fire me. Doesn't it always boil down to the M-word finally?

My post was just my personal opinion. In the end, I would go with BAT's suggestion:

Could you have substituted with "I am tired of competing (with other people) for jobs paying minimum wage."

It is a lot more diplomatic...right? (Not to mention, I won't have had to type out this long message, just because I felt singled out)

[Hank W.]

Hey, welcome to the group!

Cultural stuff is very interesting; Now if you want a "cultural stereotype" of Indians in Finland, have you been to the "findians" website? All they seem to do is complain about... everything... our own anti-defamation society and I guess we need/deserve it. Of course, no need pointing out that complaining is a social gaffe in Finland so if I meet an Indian I'd ask "so what is your problem then? Living in Oulu?"

And yes, if we speak of the IT sector the situation now is changing though I seem to be in the situation of "Caravan goes, dogs bark, but someone still has to gather the droppings, and as they've got more camels but hired no more dropping-collectors I am really enjoying it now..."

Did I write already that Finnish engineers are "cheap labor"? best education and worst salaries, thats why theres so much development here.

[Juha H.]

Regarding your avatar, jcooper, you are aware of this site http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/, aren't you?

(For some reason, doesn't work, if I click here, but it opens nicely otherwise!)

[Kemars]

Regarding your avatar, jcooper, you are aware of this site http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ aren't you?

(For some reason, doesn't work, if I click here, but it opens nicely otherwise!)

This one is a classis....and the link should be this http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ without the ",".

[rainman]

zzzz

[rainman]

zzzzz