schooling and language issues

[EP]

Why would they be short changed in Finnish? They can be bi-lingual. It would be really stupid to raise kids as monoglots when both parents can give them their own language.

[CH]

..here's me wondering what's the point of your kids of being fluent in english when there's a 50-50 chance that they will eventually live overseas - married to someone from yet another language group, and speak 1500 word broken english in business all day anyway....or am I being silly - no?

??? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (and what is the point of being fluent in English... English??? The language that half the world is trying to become fluent in???? The point of it... in addition to being their mother thongue?). So yes, yes you are being silly. Do some studying on bilingualism.

[Cod]

able to development relationships with all sides of our family and are able to speak with Grandparents, cousins, etc in order to feel part of the family

..but is that called being fluent, or just being able to speak english.

I think I'm probably confused at what I call being fluent. Sending a kid to a multi-lingual PK in Finland probably isn't going to make a kid fluent - ie put in the middle of a bunch of kids on a beach in california - and he's going to sound like a stiff.

I get asked all the time whether my kid is in an english PK - but to me, that's the last place I'ld put him. He's a Finn, he speaks Finnish like a local and will speak english just like 95% of the planet - with an accent and without a history of great english comedy, literature or teenage slang to call upon.

[CH]

I think I'm probably confused at what I call being fluent. Sending a kid to a multi-lingual PK in Finland probably isn't going to make a kid fluent - ie put in the middle of a bunch of kids on a beach in california - and he's going to sound like a stiff.

I get asked all the time whether my kid is in an english PK - but to me, that's the last place I'ld put him. He's a Finn, he speaks Finnish like a local and will speak english just like 95% of the planet - with an accent and without a history of great english comedy, literature or teenage slang to call upon.

If one of the parent is English speaking, why would the child not be fluent? Assuming the parent is speaking English with the child. Of course it is always a challenge to keep up the minority language (the language spoken at home that is not the majority language of the country), but that doesn't mean one should just shrug and give up. Honestly, having English as the minority language makes it a lot easier than a lot of other languages, as there is lots of support for it that one can get here vs. some other smaller languages.

Honestly, I think you are confused about what is being fluent in a language. If a kid from the UK is stuck in the middle of a bunch of kids on the beach in California he is going to sound like a stiff... so he isn't fluent in English? A kid raised by English speaking parents in Hong Kong isn't going to be up and about about the latest teenage slang in the UK, but that doesn't mean she isn't fluent. The child attending a bilingual school may or may not make the child bilingual, but that is not the issue if the child already is bilingual, is it? It is about supporting the minority language.

So, what are your languages? I'm assuming Finnish and something else from your writing, so are your raising your child biligual? If you aren't, why not?

[Godzilla]

Of course I want both my children to be fluent in English, because that is my native language, and Finnish, because that is their mother's native language. At the moment, it is to ensure they can have relationships with relatives on both sides of the family, but as my oldest is starting to read now, it is also so that he can share in that experience. When they are older, it will be about jobs and life opportunities, but that's not what we are thinking about right now. I don't mind if they speak English with an accent - everyone speaks English with an accent - but I do want them to be able to read and write at the level of an educated native.

[Cod]

I think Penelope's emphasis got lost:

I have HUGE regrets we didn't put the younger two into Finnish primary school when we arrived.

I couldn't agree with this more. The original poster was considering moving to Finland and was then wondering about the whole kids into a bi-lingual school thing.

When they are older, it will be about jobs and life opportunities,

I see this differently; As of recent, my work supports 16 offices around the world. It's not fluency that is king, it's character and attitude. The Japanese rep' for example is legend - a stocky fella (his son is a prop!), very average english but total personality.

so are your raising your child biligual?

Yes, but I'm not pushing english - I'm pushing Finnish as being the only priority. English is inevitable - even if I went under a bus tomorrow. I was more looking at the OP's concerns.

[CH]

Gah... edit caused double post.

[CH]

I think Penelope's emphasis got lost:

I have HUGE regrets we didn't put the younger two into Finnish primary school when we arrived.

I couldn't agree with this more. The original poster was considering moving to Finland and was then wondering about the whole kids into a bi-lingual school thing.

But I think Penelope's situation is different. If I don't remember totally wrong, her family wasn't bilingually Finnish. And the OP was asking about a bilingual school, not a monolingually English school. And you were asking about achieving fluency in English.

so are your raising your child biligual?

Yes, but I'm not pushing english - I'm pushing Finnish as being the only priority. English is inevitable - even if I went under a bus tomorrow. I was more looking at the OP's concerns.

Well... from my point of view Finnish is inevitable if you live in a Finnish environment. Kids learn the language from other kids (that's how I learned Finnish, and most people don't realise it's not my mother thongue even though they should get a hint from my name). If one of the parents is Finnish, they will learn Finnish... assuming the parent is doing their job teaching their child the language. I'm not saying the OP should (or shouldn't) put their child in a bilingual school. I just don't see where the harm would be concerning Finnish, and it would be a good support for the minority language... but this is partly assuming that day to day family life is bilingual. But... most kids will be bilingual if their friends are Finnish speaking even if their home is monolingually non-Finnish (I'm looking at myself and my Swedish speaking friends who were raised in a monolingual family... a clear divide between the ones who are fluent in Finnish and the ones who aren't depending on what language their friends spoke).

I know a lot of people who are mad at one of their parents for not teaching them their language, as they now are monolingual. In my opinion... push English, especially if your child will be going to Finnish school.

[Godzilla]

Thanks for the bilingualisim stories; they are helpful for me to read even if they've been told before

I disagree with Cod about the importance of having a high level language ability. Lots of people have a basic competence in the English, and that's all they need, but really participating in conversation with native speakers, reading literature, and most of all writing well, require much more than that. I teach in an English language university business program in the Netherlands right now, and I see the difference in my students papers and exams - they do not have a full understanding of the complicated texts they read in English, and express themselves in a with a limited vocabulary. OK, it is not the end of the world, and they will probably do OK in life, but they are missing out. For them, that's fine, but they are not intellectuals and don't have any ambitions in that regard.

I am not worried about the speaking part at all; my children will pick that up. They both have very good Dutch, although my oldest has learned it only from playing with friends after school (my youngest is in a Dutch speaking school). So I'm sure their spoken Finnish will be fine, especially considering we speak it at home. Reading and writing in English I am more concerned about. And in Finnish as well, as they will need to do both.

So the real question is whether to put them in a bilingual program 50/50 Finnish/English, or a Finnish program. We won't have time for home schooling or anything like that - my wife and I both have high pressure jobs with long hours. For my daughter, whose English is not as strong, the bilingual track sounds very attractive, but for my son, who can already read English independently, the 2nd grade might not challenge him enough and he might get bored. If they are flexible at the school, though, it will probably be ok.

But the one thing that seems to come through from people's accounts is that there isn't a one best way to do this, and it depends very much on the circumstances and the child. So I think we'll have to visit the school and talk to the teachers, let them meet the children etc. before making a decision.

[Cod]

..hmm, quick point to consider (can't quote from here this dialogue box...something went pear-shaped)

..there was a point you made about 'communicating with native speakers'. In my global working walk-about I don't bump into many native speakers. I don't think that being able understand Brad from Arizona or Charles from Whitby is an issue. It's the 95% of other english speakers that is more important. They probably have the business you're looking to tap into - the guys from Mumbai, Shanghai, Jarkarta.

Interestingly, we got a text from a relative up north last night, she has pulled out of a bi-lingual business school - the quality of the english was terrible as was the teaching. I'm not surprised.

[onkko]

schooling language are sharp to understand the student if explain difficult word thats meaning are not known student so explain are easy language ..

Is this example of dangers of schooling language or schooling in general?

[Godzilla]

It turns out all our thinking and planning about which school to put the kids in have come to naught, anyhow.

We decided that we'd put our kids in the bilingual school, and then started a house search on that basis. We wanted to make a deal on a house which was right outside the zone for the bilingual school, easy walking distance, but actually in another schools area. So we checked with the rector, explained the situation, and she said, fine, we can do that. They will take the kids, just sign them up after you've moved. So we agreed to buy the house.

Then we contact the school to sign the kids up, and they say "no, we are full now sorry."

Now we can pull out of the deal on the house, maybe, and take the consequences of that, then move to a place in the school's area anyway. I suppose we can try to fight the rector, but it sounds like we haven't got any rights, merely based on her promise. Or we can try to get the kids special english teaching, but that's all the way across town, and I'm not sure how they'd get there. Not much chance they'll be offered in a school near us given the WE'RE RIGHT NEXT TO A ENGLISH-FINNISH BILINGUAL SCHOOL! Any parents who want their children to get special English instruction will be sending their children there.

Maybe it's just me but it seems just a little bit irresponsible for the rector to tell us we can get in, when apparently it was perfectly possible that we wouldn't. It also seems to me they should have some mechanism for getting bi-lingual kids into a bi-lingual school, since otherwise it will be just filled up with Finnish monoliguals, and there's no way they'll get them to speak English to each other.

[Rosamunda]

Finnish bilingual schools were/are intended for Finnish kids who want to BECOME bilingual. When we arrived here in 2001 we couldn't get our kids into a bilingual school because they didn't speak Finnish. Speaking Finnish was a prerequisite for entering a bilingual school. That's how the system was set up and apparently it hasn't changed much.

Having said that, I do think that many Finnish mainstream schools are practically bilingual schools in that many of the children (especially the boys strangely enough) speak fluent English and are more than happy to do so. They all game in English as soon as they get home.

[Godzilla]

Well, my kids are Finnish and speak Finnish. They also speak English and Dutch. We know what we want as far as schools, and were willing to buy a house in the right place to get it. The rector told us one thing and then did another. If she hadn't done that, we'd have bought a different house, perhaps in the actual school area. That's what I find irritating.

[Rosamunda]

Maybe there will be places after the summer. Maybe some families will move away or change schools. Do you know if the school has a waiting list and how far down it you are? You could try calling the local Board of Education in Jyväskylä to explain what happened and see what they suggest.

In Espoo the English-language schools are (at least, they used to be) obliged to keep 2-3 places open for "Foreigners and Returning Finns" ie kids arriving from outside Finland. I'm not sure about the bilingual schools though. Then in the autumn, if no "international" kids turn up, the extra places are given to local kids on the waiting list. But Jyväskylä might be different. Did your children take the entrance test already? Or maybe they don't have them in Jyväaskylä...