Voluntary international relocation with a finnish child

[cors187]

That is irrelevant, law is about what is good for children and fck your emotions. Its irrelevant if youre happy or not.

I grew up in a butcher shop, sometimes you remind of the butcher who never sharpened his knives and hacked through everything and presented the shabbiest and deformed cutlets in the shop.
True they are cutlets, but its a real mess

[cors187]

You girls want free legal advice?
Set up a strategy(2 or 3 years) , that implements a foster system with your trusted allies, If you dont have one create it, join forces with others, build your little temporary protection service for your children.Set up your paper trail with your trusted family in your own country , reasons why you had to leave urgently etc etc, make sure you can prove these later.
Implement a document trail that allows you to leave (when you pick your moment). Have on standby your legal documents you need to submit to the legal authorities, download the applications and study the applications.Us the application to understand whats going to happen in court, the time its going to take , everything about.
Now just tell your ex your going and your not signing custody, leave the country.If he folds good , if he doesnt fold good.Atleast in the next round he knows you cant be emotionally messed with.
Wear them down,

[Adrian42]

My point I guess was that people should really think twice before having a child in a foreign country. I wish I had taken the step more seriously, or even had a faint clue what kind of a decades-long sentence I was signing myself into. Oh, the naive ideas of very young marrieds.

Marriage itself is not a big deal today, you can always file for divorce and never see your ex again.

Thinking twice before having a child is the important point here, and it is not even limited to having a child in a foreign countries but to any case of having a child.

Having a child together usually ties the partners together both financially and geographically for the next 18 years.

Divorce is ugly where children are concerned. It always is, even where bi-cultural relationships are not an issue.

Sometimes it surely is, but definitely not always.

There are also many cases where the parents manage to resolve that in a civilized way.

[Rip]

and as the foreign parent you are basically held hostage and have to make the best of it.

Yes, fair enough though the fact that divorce happen shouldn't be surprise to people.

Someone has to waive their rights to freedom to live in their home country in the event of a divorce, it's just by default the foreigner.

Three justifications for that 'default' first in my mind. If the kid isn't baby anymore then that is the country that has become his home. Second is that at least the foreigner does have the option continue staying that country. You can't even take it for granted the other parent would get a residence permit to the other country if (s)he would not be living with the ex-family. Finally the foreigner one has the opportunity over time (if the marriage isn't very short) make also other ties to the new country. Job, property, friends, even citizenship. The other parent can't during that same time.

It could be possible to include in a prenup that in the event of divorce, the default would swing the other way.

In some hypothetical theory, yes. I really don't think it would be valid under Finnish law though.

[tampere_gal]

Stay at home moms don't have job, property, etc..... And I have met very few foreigners in Finland who speak fluently in under ten years. The average length of domestic relationships in Finland is 8 years. I know no one who has truly managed to integrate in 8 years or less. Just sayin'. It's harder than you think to adopt certain countries which are rather closed to outsiders.
And I wasn't referring to school children, but little kids & babies who have no real connection to the world outside the parents who primarily cares for them.
Of course getting residence permit for the other parent should be a pre-req to leave. Many important factors should be considered when working out a gameplan that is best for children and as fair and reasonable as possible to both parents. I just think its a bit sad when the default option takes away that entire discussion and erases even the possibility that the child might be better off not in the country of their birth, and puts all the advantage to the local parent, no matter what.. It's a shame that all options are not handled equally to determine what makes the most sense for the child and all family members.

Why wouldn't a custody agreement in a legal contract, agreed & signed by both parents ahead of time from any divorce, be valid under Finnish law?

[cors187]

I just think its a bit sad when the default option takes away that entire discussion and erases even the possibility

This is an average Genetic disposition talking here,a product of whatever makes them ,to study them is to study the Australian aboriginal,the Galapagos island tortoise,south park,and Finlex reports.
The default option for the average is to"Ask for more than what they are wanting to give back"
This why Fins make great entrepreneurs but really bad workers because the default option is to "Ask for more than what they are wanting to give back".

[Adrian42]

Of course getting residence permit for the other parent should be a pre-req to leave. Many important factors should be considered when working out a gameplan that is best for children and as fair and reasonable as possible to both parents. I just think its a bit sad when the default option takes away that entire discussion and erases even the possibility that the child might be better off not in the country of their birth, and puts all the advantage to the local parent, no matter what.. It's a shame that all options are not handled equally to determine what makes the most sense for the child and all family members.

The status quo is that both parents and the children are in Finland. And keeping the status quo is often the best available option.

If one parent moves with the child to a country far away, that basically forces the other parent to either give up the child or move to the same country.

Take the case of the OP of this thread as an example:

The mother wants to move with the child to South Africa. If the father does not want to get cut off completely from the life of his child, he would also have to move to South Africa. A residence permit for South Africa might be the smallest of all worries. He would be there without knowing anyone, likely without a job, and there is no social security system in South Africa that would cover him like the one that covers the mother in Finland.

Based on your logic what makes the most sense for the child and all family members, it is pretty clear in that case that the best available solution in this case is that everyone stays in Finland.

[Mook]

Unhappy Mother == Unhappy Child

[enkeligod]

Would taking an holiday with child to your country and be back to Finland be a problem for the OP ?

[Tiwaz]

I was just pointing out the downside of having a family in a foreign country in the event that the relationship goes disastrously, and basically saying it is what it is, and as the foreign parent you are basically held hostage and have to make the best of it. Someone has to lose in these cases of divorce where children are concerned. The stranded foreigner has a tough way of it, and the other parent will have a tough way of it if the group of them moves to the other parent's country.
My point I guess was that people should really think twice before having a child in a foreign country. I wish I had taken the step more seriously, or even had a faint clue what kind of a decades-long sentence I was signing myself into. Oh, the naive ideas of very young marrieds. Oh, and why would the partner be willing to sign a prenup waiving their rights to keep their child in their home country in the event of divorce? If they badly enough want to have a child with a foreigner in their home country, and that foreigner isn't willing to be the one to waive (by default) the same exact thing, and doesn't want their future pre-determined by the law. Someone has to waive their rights to freedom to live in their home country in the event of a divorce, it's just by default the foreigner. It could be possible to include in a prenup that in the event of divorce, the default would swing the other way. It would be just as fair, just having the shoe on the other foot, so to say.

You know, there is one very simple solution to this.
Make the Finnish parent have sole custody.
Ta-Dah! You can go as far as you want


Why it should be the foreigner who is granted right to have child with them? Child was born in Finland, has lived entire life to that point in Finland.
Letting child stay and parent leave would not be any worse than having child and parent leave.

[Tiwaz]

You girls want free legal advice?
Set up a strategy(2 or 3 years) , that implements a foster system with your trusted allies, If you dont have one create it, join forces with others, build your little temporary protection service for your children.Set up your paper trail with your trusted family in your own country , reasons why you had to leave urgently etc etc, make sure you can prove these later.
Implement a document trail that allows you to leave (when you pick your moment). Have on standby your legal documents you need to submit to the legal authorities, download the applications and study the applications.Us the application to understand whats going to happen in court, the time its going to take , everything about.
Now just tell your ex your going and your not signing custody, leave the country.If he folds good , if he doesnt fold good.Atleast in the next round he knows you cant be emotionally messed with.
Wear them down,

So what is this genius plan? To dump kid to someone to take care?
Qualifies for negligence. More than enough to make you declared unfit to be guardian. Child lost.

Take kid with you?
Kidnappin. Criminal act which WILL have you lose your position as guardian, you will not see your child without someone present to ensure you do not pull it off again. Child lost.

[Upphew]

Take kid with you?
Kidnappin. Criminal act which WILL have you lose your position as guardian, you will not see your child without someone present to ensure you do not pull it off again. Child lost.

Unless you get someone from consulate to smuggle the kid...

[tampere_gal]

Adrian42 yes it could often be the best option. Often and always are so very far apart.
In this case it depends on so much we don't know. If the man is abusive then .....well I don't want to comment much on a particular case when so little info is known. I was speaking generally.

Ideally parents ( + mediator/judge if necessary) would sit down and have a reasonable, civil discourse to come up with the best possible plan for the future. My qualm is that the option of living in the primary caregiver's home country isn't even discussed. It's simply illegal and out of the question. Surely there are at least some cases where what makes most sense is that the foreign parent and their extended family and the life the child would lead in that home country has even more to offer the child than Finland, as wonderful as Finland is. And for those children it's a pity it's not even on the table, up for discussion.

[Pursuivant]

So what is this genius plan? To dump kid to someone to take care?

Well, the social aunties seem to be keener and keener to abduct the child and place in foster care...

[cors187]

So what is this genius plan? To dump kid to someone to take care?
Qualifies for negligence. More than enough to make you declared unfit to be guardian. Child lost.

Take kid with you?
Kidnappin. Criminal act which WILL have you lose your position as guardian, you will not see your child without someone present to ensure you do not pull it off again. Child lost.

there was a few missing parts that i just presumed people would understand.
The security net is when the woman is leaving(preparing to leave) , having no rent agreement , no bills etc etc,all documented details formally ended.
She needs a safety net for her child to live in, of-course the mum is with the child.All the legal child status documents are ready.

Woman hands child over to father and says .Im leaving, and if you want to sign these, then sign them , then woman leaves country.Woman already has her 2nd plan already with document trail to home country about leaving the country for a valid reason that was needed.

The security net is still working for her, so after a while if ex husband breaks down , bam instant help in finalnd by the support group.
The whole thing costs money but would you pay 5000 euro to get out of a 20 year Jail sentence ,I would pay 5000 a year, every year to get out of it!

Imagine the horror when a woman putting herself out for 20 years, (for a man so he can get to have some contact with his child) ,when infact if he was given the prime carer position decided that life was to difficult and decided to give the child away to be raised by another , or some other thing happens, like your security net getting proof that the father could not handle the situation and didn't do the most correct things(you were hoping your ex would falter and you had your safety net ready).I mean this stuff is what detective work is all about , forming the legal opinion through evidence that the child is better with the mother.

Giving your child to their other biological parent is in no way neglect.
Or sit around for 20 years.Whatever!