Harassment and assault at Stockmann Dept store, Helsinki

[Upphew]

You can object to järjestyksenvalvoja all you want, but it is in their right to use force if you don't comply to their demand to leave. Or stay if you are waiting for the cops.

That's beyond the point. As far as I understand, the OP neither refused to leave the premises, nor did she refuse to stay while waiting for the police, as she was not asked to do either.

I was referring to raskarhu's case "once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out'" emphasis mine.

As far as I understand OP did come from the doors when asked, but stopped complying when directed to the back room and that prompted the grapping and pushing.

[Upphew]

The law is very specific on when they can detain and search you. In a case described by the OP they can't detain you.

http://www.intermin.fi/fi/turvallisuus/ ... ivaltuudet

"Vartija voi vartioimistehtävää suorittaessaan ottaa kiinni verekseltä tai pakenemasta tavatun rikoksentekijän ensinnäkin silloin, jos rikoksesta saattaa seurata vankeutta. Lisäksi myös lievä pahoinpitely, näpistys, lievä kavallus, lievä luvaton käyttö, lievä moottorikulkuneuvon käyttövarkaus, lievä vahingonteko tai lievä petos oikeuttavat kiinniotto-oikeuden käyttämiseen."

This means they need to catch you in the act. A suspicion is not enough.

True dat. On the other hand they can grab and push you if you start to act up. It is within your rights to not let them go through your stuff and wait for the police to come and clear things up. They can search if you are in possession of dangerous items then though.

[AldenG]

Stockmann's move downmarket is even more apparent when you only see it every few years, like I do.

I don't know if a police complaint will get any traction (the employees are likely to conspire in a lie), but publicity is a consumer's friend. The store doesn't want a reputation for harassing innocent shoppers.

[AldenG]

...Hello, you fools, I CAME BACK INTO THE SHOP, and I walked directly to the counter - does that seem like the action of a thief to you?!

All this because the staff didn't do their job of removing the tag like they're supposed to. Fortunately for me she took me at my word and looked properly for the tag this time. But the lingering feeling is decidedly nasty.

If the surprise was spoiled, I would probably have insisted on a return and refund. And quite possibly even if the surprise wasn't spoiled, on the principle of not rewarding crappy service. And there at the same cashier, too, not at some 7th-floor Returns window.

It sounds like the personnel and likely the management nowadays lack the refinement and discernment to see themselves through the eyes of the clientele they once catered to. (Or "for," if you prefer.)

[CH]

While browsing through the jackets - I picked up three of them - tried them in the trial room and left all of them there as they didn't fit me.

Just as an aside... the culture here is to return the items back to the racks, not leave them in the changing room. So this is probably what triggered their suspicion, as a shoplifter would take the clothes and in the dressing room either put them under their clothes or stash it into a large shopping bag. No excuse for them treating you roughly, though, and they have no right going through your bags unless you give them permission for it (but that means they will call a police to come search them instead... but the point being, they have to ask permission to go through your bags).

[nisco]

While browsing through the jackets - I picked up three of them - tried them in the trial room and left all of them there as they didn't fit me.

...the culture here is to return the items back to the racks, not leave them in the changing room...

I think it's the general rule everywhere, specifically for a good customer, who doesn't like to cause any uncomfortable for anyone, including her/himself, the security guards, even other customers who will use the same space. This rule may be unwritten, but just think about it.

[Elephant]

While browsing through the jackets - I picked up three of them - tried them in the trial room and left all of them there as they didn't fit me.

...the culture here is to return the items back to the racks, not leave them in the changing room...

I think it's the general rule everywhere, specifically for a good customer, who doesn't like to cause any uncomfortable for anyone, including her/himself, the security guards, even other customers who will use the same space. This rule may be unwritten, but just think about it.

Actually, it's not the general rule everywhere. In the US they prefer you to either leave the clothes in the dressing room or to leave them on a rack outside the dressing room or to hand them to the employee working in the dressing room area.The employees sort them and return them to their proper place. This is because many customers invariably return the clothes to the wrong rack...or don't fold them properly etc.
I've encountered the same attitude in many parts of Europe, Asia and Africa.

[raskarhu]

You can object to järjestyksenvalvoja all you want, but it is in their right to use force if you don't comply to their demand to leave. Or stay if you are waiting for the cops.

That's beyond the point. As far as I understand, the OP neither refused to leave the premises, nor did she refuse to stay while waiting for the police, as she was not asked to do either.

I was referring to raskarhu's case "once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out'" emphasis mine.

As far as I understand OP did come from the doors when asked, but stopped complying when directed to the back room and that prompted the grapping and pushing.

What are you trying to say? That I have to comply with the bouncer whatever he feels coercing me to, even if I'm not causing any harm to anyone? Are you totally losing the perspective here?

Bouncers are supposed to prevent/ stop fights or prevent people from entering a place/ throwing them out because excessively drunk, drugged or otherwise causing trouble or because stealing harrassing and so on. And all of this to make the bar/ club/ gathering place/ shop a nice place for everyone. Remember we're talking about night/ party life here, not some gathering of the NSDAP where the great leader can decide who gets to party and who not. Sorry to put it that blunt, but just to make you understand that people shouldn't be thrown out of a bar/ club just because the gorilla don't like your face.

Same goes for the shopguards the original OP was referring to. Please bare in mind that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise and also shop guards should respect that principle, otherwise they are not well trained.

It's really all about a bloody boorish mentality. Not even mentioning the lack of commercial attitudes... how can Stockman or any shop or bar/ club condone such agressive behaviour towards its clients?

One more thing I think it is no surprise the nightlife and party culture in Finland is so uptight and aggressive, instead of relaxed and intense and free and wild.

[raskarhu]

quote]
I was referring to raskarhu's case "once floored in a bar because I objected to the march order of the fascist telling me - out of the blue without any reason - 'you're too drunk you go out'" emphasis mine.

As far as I understand OP did come from the doors when asked, but stopped complying when directed to the back room and that prompted the grapping and pushing.[/quote]

Sorry if I seem to get a little (just al little) irritated by your suggesting that I should follow orders from someone who is not a police officer? Do you even believe in the rule of law, freedom, the right to be left alone when not causing no harm, the right not to be harrassed by a no-brainer who feels "he will be the judge of that" (whether harm is caused or not), the right to party, the right to be glad, to make mistakes even and leave clothes you just tried on in the changing room, the right to be very fekking taken aback when some looney starts pushing you around because you do not immediately respond positively to his orders, because - duh uh - you are abviously innocent. Do you even believe in non-violence, especially when the targets (I can imagine that's how these guys usually look upon ordinary people, as targets) are utterly non-violent? All that to me reeks of fascism...

Just a little bit irritated though.

[rinso]

that I should follow orders from someone who is not a police officer?

If he's in function on a private property, yes you have to.
When you come to my home and I tell you to leave, you have to leave.
If you're trying to do things I have forbidden, I can try to prevent you doing that.

[raskarhu]

that I should follow orders from someone who is not a police officer?

If he's in function on a private property, yes you have to.
When you come to my home and I tell you to leave, you have to leave.
If you're trying to do things I have forbidden, I can try to prevent you doing that.

First: I should not take orders in the sense that I am there to have a good time and 'taking orders' - when I am just minding my own bizz, having fun with friends, doing things usually things people do in a bar/ club - just doesn't fit into that concept... get it?
Secondly, I should not be pushed around, he can first try and explain, be kind, show some commercial (even human-like and not Schwarzenegger-like) attitude and then ultimately understand he's a dick and was all wrong about me being a nuisance ... still don't get it do you?
Three: "If you're trying to do things I have forbidden, I can try to prevent you doing that". No, you can not do that. Police and the law can. It all depends on the situation but in general I would never accept orders from you when being in a public space and not causing any harm. In your home: would never tresspass, I don't like your redneck mentality.
Four: if you do not get all that, to me you are a danger to democracy and freedom.

[rinso]

Three: "If you're trying to do things I have forbidden, I can try to prevent you doing that". No, you can not do that. Police and the law can. It all depends on the situation but in general I would never accept orders from you when being in a public space and not causing any harm. In your home: would never tresspass, I don't like your redneck mentality.

Come and try.

Four: if you do not get all that, to me you are a danger to democracy and freedom.

If you violate my private space and don't listen to me, you're the one who is a danger to democracy and freedom.

[Upphew]

Sorry if I seem to get a little (just al little) irritated by your suggesting that I should follow orders from someone who is not a police officer? Do you even believe in the rule of law, freedom, the right to be left alone when not causing no harm, the right not to be harrassed by a no-brainer who feels "he will be the judge of that" (whether harm is caused or not), the right to party, the right to be glad, to make mistakes even and leave clothes you just tried on in the changing room, the right to be very fekking taken aback when some looney starts pushing you around because you do not immediately respond positively to his orders, because - duh uh - you are abviously innocent. Do you even believe in non-violence, especially when the targets (I can imagine that's how these guys usually look upon ordinary people, as targets) are utterly non-violent? All that to me reeks of fascism...

Just a little bit irritated though.

There are a lot of power trippers working security. I'd say that is non contested fact. But when you don't leave when asked you are asking those people to escalate things, just the thing they want.

[rinso]

Of course you can ask someone not to do things, but if you invited them in and then they do something you don't like, your only options are to ask them to stop, ask them to leave, or call the police. You can't physically assault someone for trying to touch your vintage record collection. So no... you can't "try to prevent" them doing things if you mean by using violence to do so.

That's not how it works in the countryside where the police is an hour away.
The police even told us to solve the problem ourselves as long as we didn't "damage" the drunkard to much.

[jukbeenlover]

Offcourse !!!
Pull the RACECARD again!
Very original, if you dont have anything to hide you open up your
purse and show the guard that your innocent.

Case closed no need to be all Dr.Phil @ Stockmann.