School Shooting in Finland!

[LilWabbit]

Rob: FYI: Janteloven:

Don't think that you are special.
Don't think that you are of the same standing as us.
Don't think that you are smarter than us.
Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
Don't think that you know more than us.
Don't think that you are more important than us.
Don't think that you are good at anything.
Don't laugh at us.
Don't think that anyone cares about you.
Don't think that you can teach us anything.



In other words... It is not "your place" to "speak up" if you're not... "local"?

Yes...I know this is fairly strongly stated, but the essential truth is there.... The locals, Finnish or otherwise, often have quite good reasons for living the way they do. These "cultural ways" have been built up over hundreds of years.... it may not be entirely "efficient" in the eyes of the foreigner, but so what!! It's a way of life... And it probably works for most of the locals... and even if it doesn't, I would likely only be critical if classes of people were actually being abused...like the "Untouchables" in India, ethnic minorities in Russia, native Indians in Canada, such "global" issues are "fair game", so to speak...but Finland has little in the way of issues in these areas... And what issues they might have along these lines, I'm sure there are ways to voice your displeasure if you have something useful to say. But criticizing a culture, in a general way, just seems to be something that would annoy...

In my part of the world I can tell people who were born and raised here and those that come from somewhere else...even if they speak English flawlessly, or even if English is their mother tongue!!! And I'm much more receptive to general criticism about the local culture if it comes from another local, than I am if it comes from a foreigner, or even someone from another part of Canada... I think it's just human nature...and you might actually feel like saying, "If it's so bad here, why don't you go back where you come from?"...

While I was living in Ontario, in the late 80s, there were certainly things I thought weren't that great, but, generally, I didn't complain... I remember one guy saying words to the effect of ..."For a guy from BC, you're pretty easy to be around"...But I didn't particularly try to fit in...I just didn't complain...

Heck, one of my buddies who went back east slightly after me to work on the same project, even traded in his Japanese car for an American piece of junk, because there were a number of auto plants in the area and the locals tended to be supportive of the local industry... I didn't worry about that and kept driving my BMW.... Then a Volvo... Never seemed to be an issue...

Eeeeek, someone peeved Hank. We have created a monster! Run for your lives!!!

[Megstertex]

Rob: FYI: Janteloven:

Don't think that you are special.
Don't think that you are of the same standing as us.
Don't think that you are smarter than us.
Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
Don't think that you know more than us.
Don't think that you are more important than us.
Don't think that you are good at anything.
Don't laugh at us.
Don't think that anyone cares about you.
Don't think that you can teach us anything.



In other words... It is not "your place" to "speak up" if you're not... "local"?

Thanks for the reminder, Hank. Though it's a bit kicking a dead horse, if you know what I mean, an explicit confirmation of what I've thought for a while now about interacting with many locals and an ''us vs. them'' mentality. Believe me, I know my place here. My post was not intended to be critical of FINLAND or of FINNS nor was it to say anything about MY ideas or that any place else's cultural provisions could somehow be the way to do things here or a better way at all. The only point I was trying to make, which is the main point I gathered from the article, is that this is not an incident to be ashamed of or defensive about, but perhaps could be an appropriate time to ask some hard questions, in spite of the fact that Finland is an almost perfect place on paper and in real life for those that have been here. I for one, would like to see more discussion at my workplace besides a new lock-down procedure.

You see, this is a problem for me as well, this isn't uniquely Finland's problem, or a Finnish thing. I pay taxes, and I work in an environment, where I think I am allowed some kind of thoughts on the matter. This is a forum that seems to invite foreigners opinions that live in Finland, so while I know no Finn cares to hear my opinion and I wouldn't dare give it to them voluntarily, but perhaps others, the crappy parts of the pulla like me, might care to have a thoughtful and constructive discussion about these issues that affect us as well.

And I must have only read one of Boyle's articles, EP, I didn't see the thing about the girl at the church. Pen, I agree that the wisdom teeth thing might seem a bit much, but it also seemed to me that he had a deeper connection to Finland somehow, but that was reading into it.

[Hank W.]

I was more referring to why Boyle got such a strong response.

However it is a good thing to remember. The "Janteloven" *explains a lot* of the "how&why" of the small-town mentality, even in Finland. Of course it is a gross exsaggeration; but the knee-jerk "Finnish response" won't come as a surprise when and if you remember all this.

As we all know, "nobody tells you this"; LilWabbit - I wasn't peeved; I just unleashed the big hairy finn... nice fangs, eh?

[EP]

an explicit confirmation of what I've thought for a while now about interacting with many locals and an ''us vs. them'' mentality.

Well, if somebody does not know, Jantelovet is actually originally Danish. And is certainly practised in Sweden as well, maybe even more than in Finland.

but it also seemed to me that he had a deeper connection to Finland somehow

If he had, it certainly didn´t come out from his text. I got the feeling that he has been here once 31 years ago, and just harbours some strange ideas. And has no sensitivity whatsoever. Every other journalist just sticked to the facts, as he should have done.

perhaps could be an appropriate time to ask some hard questions

Those questions are asked, every single day. And that conversation is ongoing. And what is the conclusion: Mental care of teenagers should be better. Handguns should be kept at shooting ranges. What else could there be? Certainly not the generalisations of Mr Boyle, I refuse to take the blame, and I refuse to accept that it was the fault of the Finnish society or CLIMATE. Sorry, but my kids grew up just fine.

Let´s remember Myyrmanni bombing affair. I don´t see any difference to this shooting, except no youTube was involved at that time. But internet was: He found the bomb instructions from the internet. What happened after all that conversation and conclusions? Nothing. It looks like it would take a lot more to get the big wheel turning, and I don´t have a clue what could be done differently. Except better mental care and handguns kept at shooting places. Or ban Internet?

What has changed in countries where these kind of things are more common? To my knowledge: Nothing.

[sammy]

What happened after all that conversation and conclusions? Nothing. It looks like it would take a lot more to get the big wheel turning, and I don´t have a clue what could be done differently. Except better mental care and handguns kept at shooting places. Or ban Internet?

What has changed in countries where these kind of things are more common? To my knowledge: Nothing.

Well, we could try a novel approach and ban shopping malls and schools

I don't think anyone really wants more control. And to be honest, try as we might we couldn't control everything.

But then again, how to deal with the root issues?

[olofsson]

I don't think it's really my place to say, and I don't want to offend anyone, but SHOULDN'T we be asking questions and looking at the bigger picture? Perhaps, coming from a British man it may sound a tad arrogant, but I don't really find anything really overtly innaccurate about this article.

Yes, "we" should be asking questions, but why now and why in Britain?

This is not a sign of Finland becomming a threat to the Brits, neither is it some danger that has arrived suddenly. With exeption for copy-cats, there is no danger in contemplation and fact-finding and - most of all - in debating and deciding somewhat later, with a head undisturbed by shock and emotions.

I on my behalf find the English language reporting I've followed in tv, printed press and via news papers' web sites to be sensationalist and genuinely inadequate to help foreigners understand anything at all.

I've maybe not taken a too keen interest in this coverage, but compared to other pieces I've seen and heard that asked "why?", this article wasn't exceptional - unfortunately.

There have been so many reports about Finland being this utopia country with high marks for happiness, high education, transparency, competitiveness, honesty, etc. Quite frankly, if a journalist didn't bring up this discrepancy of trouble in paradise, he wouldn't be doing his job.

In this particular case, he could most certainly have written a more balanced and better informed article.

I am no Finn. I do not feel in any way nationalistically hurt by this coverage, but I find most of it to be as helpful as gossiping women.

[Hank W.]

BTW

[Hank W.]

Not illegal, hard to get. And yes, theres a catgory of "gun collectors". So if someone has something its a probability they have several. You cannot have "full automatic" option, probably thats what the modifications meant. So, how did he react when you got an amandmental constipation over his collection. Poor bloke, he'll go postal now knowing everybody thinks hes mad...

[starviego]

I have noticed that a list of the dead and injured has not yet been made public. Is that some sort of Finnish cultural thing? As a long-time student of the school shooting phenomenom, I have never noticed this before.

[sammy]

I have noticed that a list of the dead and injured has not yet been made public. Is that some sort of Finnish cultural thing? As a long-time student of the school shooting phenomenom, I have never noticed this before.

According to this bit of news, KRP (National Bureau of Investigation) is not going to publish the names of the victims.

I don't know the reason, on the other hand I can't see what anyone would actually gain by it. The nearest and dearest, that is, those who need to know... they know already! Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if the media (evening rags etc) would eventually publish an 'inofficial' list.

[starviego]

Thank you for the prompt reply. All I can say is to be very wary of just relying on the word of some government bureaucrat to explain the whys and wherefores of this event. I do hope when the governmental investigation is complete that all unedited eyewitness accounts are made public. In my studies, there is often a great discrepancy between what the police/media claims and what is actually witnessed by the people who were there.

[sammy]

Thank you for the prompt reply. All I can say is to be very wary of just relying on the word of some government bureaucrat to explain the whys and wherefores of this event. I do hope when the governmental investigation is complete that all unedited eyewitness accounts are made public. In my studies, there is often a great discrepancy between what the police/media claims and what is actually witnessed by the people who were there.

Huh? If you are implying something, I'm not sure if I'm even interested to know what that could be. Especially if Elvis is involved in the theory.

In short, all that essentially matters to me is that 9 people were killed, including the shooter - and that sincerely I hope such incidents remain rare...

[starviego]

It may come as a shock to you to know that not everything is always as it seems, and that evil-doers sometimes manipulate events for their own ends. Did Oswald kill Kennedy? You tell me.



--------------

"We can't be that stupid to think it was just these two kids....two adults couldn't have done this."
-Christian LaPlante(father of Columbine High School student Jennifer LaPlante)

[sammy]

It may come as a shock to you to know that not everything is always as it seems, and that evil-doers sometimes manipulate events for their own ends. Did Oswald kill Kennedy? You tell me.

Ooh, I'm impressed. There goes my night's sleep

I'll only bother to add this pair of words - schoolchildren vs. major political world leaders.

nuff said... *exeunt, pursued by an imaginary bear*

Ei helevetti... kai se on uskottava että salaliitto tässäkin on takana

[EP]

I have noticed that a list of the dead and injured has not yet been made public. Is that some sort of Finnish cultural thing?

Afternoon rags published the names and the headmistresses picture two days after the shooting.

all unedited eyewitness accounts are made public.

???? So what were all the TV and newspaper interviews of students and teachers if they were not "eyewitness accounts"?