Do you have to serve Finnish Army as a naturalized citizen?

[Tiwaz]

They didn't have to nuke Georgia. The Russians simply rolled in with a few tanks after they were attacked and the country was occupied. Georgia was staged to make McCain look like a strongman during the elections but that's a different story. It's interesting that you bring up Georgia. Their active military is larger than Finland's and their military spending is about the same.

And what would Russia gain by nuking Finland?
Or would Russia do it for !"#¤% and giggles?

You wage wars to gain something. Nuclear wasteland is not very enviable gain, and fallout would drift to Russia as well.

So only realistic threat would be conventional attack, against which Finnish military works. It would not win the war, but purpose is not to defeat Russia. Simply make cost of invasion far outweigh the benefits gained.

My point is that joining the army or doing the much longer civil service should be valued equally. Finland is not at war and probably won't be so all the primitive macho homophobic strongman talk is for nothing.

No they should not be valued equally.

In one, you prepare to put your life at risk to preserve this country. On the other, you make statement that you are such a pathetic creature you would rather drop your pants and bend over than fight for what is yours.


Finland is not at war, and if we maintain military which makes invasion unprofitable enterprise... We most likely never will be. But civil service people do not make such enterprises unprofitable. Because they are worthless militarily.

[Upphew]

My point is that joining the army or doing the much longer civil service should be valued equally.

They are both 362 days. So no much longer there. Although you may manage army in just 180 days, it is not certain. You cannot know beforehand that you aren't ordered to some special training. I was certain that I'll do the minimum time and after few weeks I was aiming to RUK...

Also: Judge and cleaner of parliament house are both civil servants, their service should be valued equally?

[Pursuivant]

The civil service is a "day job" the military is 24/7 job. Thats the difference. Maybe they should state it in "hours of service" instead of days.

[Philip C]

I don't understand why someone would opt out of this. In the army you'll meet people you never would have met otherwise, do things you never would have done, and it probably will be a great source of pride for you throughout your life. Like others on here I also agree that as an immigrant you must conform to your new country the best you can. If that means getting outside of your comfort zone and serving your stint in the army, so be it. Although I don't have to do conscription since I was in the US Army, I will if I gain citizenship before I turn 30.

[Upphew]

I don't understand why someone would opt out of this. In the army you'll meet people you never would have met otherwise, do things you never would have done, and it probably will be a great source of pride for you throughout your life.

I'd guess that people try to avoid army because it is mandatory. Also in school one might think that you are studying to get better job, but I'd guess that almost no one thinks that he is studying for the nation. In army most think they are doing it for the nation and not for himself. So while some people just go through school system, they still have some personal interest in it, but they have less or none interest in service, while they both are important to the nation.

Like others on here I also agree that as an immigrant you must conform to your new country the best you can. If that means getting outside of your comfort zone and serving your stint in the army, so be it. Although I don't have to do conscription since I was in the US Army, I will if I gain citizenship before I turn 30.

I don't agree that immigrant should conform to his new country as much as possible, but that they should bear the responsibility when not doing so. And when things are hard and frustrating and different they can complain and try to change things, but in that case they should understand why people point to the door. We are different, we don't all fit to the same mold and we should accept that. We can sometimes change the mold, but that should not be the first thing to do when we have friction (unless you want to aim to the Borg).

[Idefix]

Also: Judge and cleaner of parliament house are both civil servants, their service should be valued equally?

During times of war, when the military personnell is defending the country, the country still needs to function in a civil way. Or are only women and old men supposed to take care of that? I am guessing you can do your civil service in a health care role, or anything, that can be of great value during times of war.

[EP]

Or are only women and old men supposed to take care of that?

Well, yes. That is what happened 60+ years ago. My mother woke up one morning just to realize that she had suddenly become a managing director of a big dairy.

[EP]

And my aunt who before the war worked in a bank became a managing director of a saw mill.

[Pursuivant]

My mother assembled radios at Helvar, but grandma continued as a foundry worker at the railways - back in the day making the sand molds was a "womens job" in heavy industry.

[Idefix]

Assembling radios I assume most people can learn to do pretty quickly. The result is also easy to check and correct. But to suddenly become a managing director, because no one else suitable is around, I find a little scary. If all male doctors have to go fight as soldiers, hey, let all the female nurses left in the hospitals step in and do the operations!

[EP]

Being a farmer would have been more scary. You see, women not only replaced men, they also replaced horses. Hardly anybody had a tractor, work was done by a horse, but army took also horses.

[onkko]

My grandparents did all that and coped with dead of few relatives. Anyhow my fellow citizen said wice words about army. "Its not about shooting, its more like school where you are with all, all meaning all kind of classes and people. You learn to deal with them." that was true in my army time and i assume its true today too. That is something in our equal society and it teaches us equality since army is equal place where your parents or income wont matter. Hell my father who had only kansakoulu(to whom dont know you cant go lower) is captain because he was able to do it! Officer and Captain from "kansakoulupohjalta". And thats something you should look up.

[Jamfiguy]

Hate the army too dude, I think everyone should have the personal right to refuse entry into that 'st***ing' establishment. Why do we spend millions and billions of dollars each year geared towards killing off each other? Isn't that one of the biggest inhumane things to do (talk about human rights organisations - first world nations are the biggest hypocrites with their massive armies to promote more inhumanity)? Just an absolute waste of tax dollars.

F**k the militaries throughout the entire world (just pure useless crap).

Jamfiguy

[onkko]

Hate the army too dude, I think everyone should have the personal right to refuse entry into that 'st***ing' establishment. Why do we spend millions and billions of dollars each year geared towards killing off each other? Isn't that one of the biggest inhumane things to do (talk about human rights organisations - first world nations are the biggest hypocrites with their massive armies to promote more inhumanity)? Just an absolute waste of tax dollars.

F**k the militaries throughout the entire world (just pure useless crap).

Jamfiguy

Thanks to our inhumane army we have finland. What your suggestion haves to give?

[Jamfiguy]

Suggestion is for everybody to live in peace with each other despite possible differences. We don't need an army to go to war to settle our differences, otherwise we haven't progressed as a human race in the many years we've been living on this planet. Its time to abolish armies and place tax dollars towards helping people live more stress free lives when they don't have work or good paying jobs. Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't abolish governments since they seem to represent their own agenda instead of the voice of individual citizens.


Jamfiguy