School Shooting in Finland!

[EP]

to turn to the State to ask for greater security

WHAT? Nobody in Finland has been in need or have felt a need of greater security before this shooting. So how would anyody even understand to ask for it? And security against what? Mental illness? Disturbed mind? We are used to those, and it is not something that THE STATE can save in a showy manouver.

They were killed in the school but police only reported on Auvinen's death

Jokela is a village where just about everybody knows everybody else. If someone would have been missing, that would have been public knowledge.

Really, starviego, it seems to me that you live in some totally obscure world, not the same one I live in. THERE ARE NO BOOGEYMEN!

[otyikondo]

Only problem is, they haven't ARRIVED in Finland yet, because NH Industries hasn't got the type-certification for the NH-90s. Drat!

[starviego]

Nobody in Finland has been in need or have felt a need of greater security before this shooting.

Yeah, emphasis on "before." But now you do, and you will get new 'security' whether you like it or not. Ask our Romanian poster what the 'Securitat' was all about. He will explain it to you.

...you live in some totally obscure world, not the same one I live in. THERE ARE NO BOOGEYMEN!

There are nine dead people in Tuusuula who would probably disagree with you there.

The "new world order of tomorrow," as Pekka's online friend Dillon Cossey liked to call it, has a long reach. Thought you were safe in Finland? Not any more!!



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"Ignorance is bliss—until it kills you."

[otyikondo]

Nobody in Finland has been in need or have felt a need of greater security before this shooting.

Yeah, emphasis on "before." But now you do, and you will get new 'security' whether you like it or not. Ask our Romanian poster what the 'Securitat' was all about. He will explain it to you.

...you live in some totally obscure world, not the same one I live in. THERE ARE NO BOOGEYMEN!

There are nine dead people in Tuusuula who would probably disagree with you there.

The "new world order of tomorrow," as Pekka's online friend Dillon Cossey liked to call it, has a long reach. Thought you were safe in Finland? Not any more!!



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"Ignorance is bliss—until it kills you."

Starviego... no offence meant, but do you have anything ELSE to contribute to these forums apart from telling us we are all doomed and all dupes?

I mean you've been here a week now, picking over the bones of Jokela. Will you be deserting us and moving on to Düsseldorf or Lyons or Bratislava or Brindisi when the respective governments start orchestrating mass shootings of their own, or can we look forward eagerly to hearing from you on other subjects of interest, such as your passion for Karelian line-dancing, ice-fishing, or picking boletus edulis mushrooms in the woods of this far-off country you apparently know so well, and whose news media you follow so avidly?

[starviego]

It is not a sin to be misinformed on a topic. That's why you have me. The juvenile random-rage attacker is my thing. I study little else. But no one is doomed. Arm yourself with knowledge, and demand that local authorities complete a real investigation, one that can answer the following questions:




THE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS OF THE JOKELA HIGH SCHOOL MASSACRE


--What is the forensic evidence against Auvinen? Was gunshot residue (GSR) evidence gathered from his hands and clothing? Were his fingerprints found on the murder weapon?

--Do eyewitness accounts support the conclusion of only one shooter? Did any eyewitness actually identify Auvinen by name, or did they use words like "the shooter" or "the gunman" to describe whom they saw?

--Were there surveillance cameras in the school(as cameras are common in Helsinki schools)?

--How many rounds did Auvinen fire, the 69 they reported early or another figure of 76 that was also reported? Did police match all the expended shell casings back to Auvinen's weapon?

--Is there a transcript of the interview Auvinen gave to the police to obtain his necessary weapon's permit? Will a copy of this application for a weapon be made public? Who provided him with the ammo?

--Why was Auvinen prescribed SSRI drugs? Who was the doctor that prescribed them? Did Auvinen complain of side effects to the doctor, as he allegedly did to friends on the net('tanascheel')? Was he institutionalized at any time?

--Will any cyber crime expert attempt to prove that it was Auvinen that posted all the incriminating videos, manifestos, etc.? What about his 'imposter' MySpace profile and page? Who did that, and when? Who translated Auvinen's 'manifesti' into perfect English and when was this posted on the net(it appeared less than 24 hours after the incident)?

--What was the motive? The cops have been painting Auvinen as 'lonely' and 'bullied.' Do his schoolmates and acquaintances support that? At least one print interview of a friend(in Finnish) refuted the 'bullied' hypothesis.

--Was Auvinen active in a 'softair' simulated-combat shooting events? Was he a player of Live Action Role-Playing (LARP) games involving combat scenarios?

--Was there any evidence that he was involved in occult/satanic activities? Did he own a black trenchcoat? Were knives and/or swords found at his residence?

--What did neighbors of Auvinen have to say? Did they see strange men, especially military or police, visiting the family in the days and weeks before the shooting?




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"We ought not to be too paranoid, ought not to be too afraid of ambiguity and irreducible doubt, too afraid of confronting worst-case scenarios and outer-limits possibilities on the grounds merely that they disarm, dehumanize, and defeat us."
--Carl Oglesby

[Andrew_S]

Only problem is, they haven't ARRIVED in Finland yet, because NH Industries hasn't got the type-certification for the NH-90s. Drat!

Interesting that those of the Press, as so often, resort to gross puerile mockery of reasoned questioning.

By the way, how's weather in Namibia this November?

[brindusa]

Ask our Romanian poster what the 'Securitat' was all about. He will explain it to you.

I'm a chick, not a dude. Not that I mind being called a "he", I do it, too. Just that political correctness can make my long sentences even longer.
I'll think about that question, although I may be too young and surely not competent enough to answer that. Many Romanians are steered to foreign, accredited sources to find out what happened to us (and what is happening to us).
Brainstorming for now: "Securitatea copilariei mele" (the security of my childhood) control and panic. lack of information. steered interpretations.
My own experience was that my parents, for reasons I can't understand, thought they should trust their kids and talked to us virtually anything there was to talk about. And I can't even remember being told to shut up in front of other kids or, worse, with strangers. I knew that. And I was a cheerful Romanian child. Now I'm a bitter grown-up. Romanian, if you wish. But I'm happy to work with children, I'm happy to be able to trust people. I can be happy, too. And I think I am safe in Finland, as much as I can be. The whole world is faced with a new kind of madness (this is the bitter "me" talking), but all I can do is focus on what *I* can do. What I *can* do. And that is enough to keep me busy, I don't have that much time...

Ignorance is a bliss - until it kills you. That may well be. But also information - too much information, as in hardly relevant for what I really have to do, which takes too much of my time and my energy, which turns me into a person I don't want to be - can be bad, too.

I'm writing after a sleepless night. But I'm like 5 minutes away from watching Madagascar and being again the child that I can still be (told you I'm a chick). Parents can make a difference.

[EP]

Really, starviego, you must find yourself a hobby, other than conspiracy theories. Star doing crosswords or join a choir.

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS? The only unanswered question is WHY?

Of course polica matched the bullets: All came from Auvinen´s gun.
All eyewitnesses knew him.

Why on earth would I want see "a transcript of the interview Auvinen gave to the police"?

And why on earth somebody would have translated his texts? He was supposed to graduate next spring. That is the level of English that is required. And it was posted to the net a few hours BEFORE the shooting.

-What did neighbors of Auvinen have to say? Did they see strange men, especially military or police, visiting the family in the days and weeks before the shooting?

Really, that was the best. Military visiting an ordinary, middle-class suburban family? Starviego, you watch too much television. You should stick to watching nature documents.

[brindusa]

From a private message I sent a few weeks ago to a fascinating character from FF. You'll never know who he is, because they are so many. It's a matter of statistics.

I'm sorry that foreigners (including Romanians, maybe including myself sometimes) fail to say why they had to move abroad and what's still keeping them here... There must be something reasonable or unreasonable-but-positive about their choice to live in a foreign country. And I'd say it should be shared at least as much as whining.
I fear fears. You can share fears if that's what it takes to move on. But if you choose to get stuck in that, fears can lead to panic and chaos. Nobody needs that.

When I talk about steered interpretations, to me it means they may be steered by someone else or they may be steered by our own fears (or both, why not). I am afraid of panic and abusive power, that's what my experience of the communist "security" made of me. I worry too much (like the mother of the serene Italian teenager ). If I were the moderator of a forum, I'd close a thread which tends to talk about fears only. But the thing I love about FF is that out of such a huge crowd you'll always find people of all sorts, who could or would balance the overall perception.
I don't know why our interlocutor wanted to talk about these things from the point of view of conspiracy theories. It crossed my mind that he may be a teenager who wants to see what is like to talk to grown-ups from a country which is still quiet and where people still say we should find the strength to trust each other. Yet if some other teenager wanted to play the game further and say he saw something, or he heard something from some witness... I don't know.
Or might as well be a grown-up who believes in the importance of awareness, who wants off-the-record acounts of things. Or many other possibilities, it doesn't really matter. Whoever he/she is, it made me think about many fears of mine, about my own communist childhood and the paradox that I was a happy child. And whatever will have happened to me by the time I become a parent, I hope I'll find the strength not to panic when I'll have kids and bad things would happen around them.
Thank you for challenging me to think things over. That's what I'm looking for on forums. Alternative sources of information. And entertainment

[EP]

Or might as well be a grown-up who believes in the importance of awareness

Yes, but awarness of WHAT? Awarness of regognizing mental problems must become better, that everybody has agreed on.

But those hysterical conspiracy theories, all kinds and colours of alerts, ten locks on our doors, guards at schools, parents too afraid to let their children walk to school, metal detectors – that kind of awarness nobody in Finland wants. And that also everybody has agreed on.

[brindusa]

EP, thank you for telling me about politeness in the forest. That's one of the things I'm madly in love with in Finland (and people seem to get more polite as weather gets worse, it's like a small community growing smaller, smiling at squirrels and woodpeckers, enjoying fresh air and "solitude" surrounded by nature).

I can't know his or her definition of awareness. I have to confess I am myself interested in some conspiracy theories, but only as far as it doesn't change the kind of person I'm trying to be, to be able to move on with my life.
So, I couldn't answer for him/her, I have no idea who he/she is. As the cowboy said once, I don't know who "you" are and that can be the mesmerizing thing about virtual realities. Even if we've met, we may not recognize each other playing gladiators here. But it's a part of the game. And yes, I love this game. (Because the alternative, boredom, can be a dreadful thing.) I'm just trying to figure out the rules, because each forum has its target and its own dynamics. Personal opinion: with the kind of forum FF is, I can understand why some things are kept out. As for the rest, we are all grown-ups, or assumed to be when we signed in. Virtual identities, virtual responsibilities, virtual power. Real fun!

Cheers!

[Megstertex]

Awareness of the world around them? That this isn't always the quiet safe little bird's nest. That bad things can happen anywhere at anytime, and that the safety of Finland cannot be taken for granted.

I agree EP, no one wants the level of color code warnings with the weather, metal detectors etc. That would be horrible.

But sometimes, I wish in this great welfare state, that these children would appreciate or even realize more that they have their high quality free education, free, healthy and hot lunches, that they can walk to school quite safely, that they expect everything to be given to them and that they almost feel entitled to expect things just to fall in their lap, that in many other countries, (and even here in the past), people have to work hard for.

There should be a happy medium. Finland has been quite successful for a small country being built on the backs of hard working, productive, and stoic Finns of the past generations, with sisu pulsing through their veins.

What does it accomplish to shield and coddle the new generations, so that they cannot accept life or reality for the harshness that it really can be?

[EP]

There should be a happy medium.

There was a medium, in late 1960`s and 1970´s. But I would not call it "happy". This is much better, and I would hate to go back to those times. Not to mention post-war times when losing your job meant that your family can eat only potatoes and fried flour.

Children are not raised in barrels, parents teach them about dangers. It would be horrible to raise kids in an atmosphere of paranoia. I agree, I wish they would appreciate school lunch, but then again, they will learn to appreciate it later in life when they live with canned tuna and noodels.

[starviego]

-What did neighbors of Auvinen have to say? Did they see strange men, especially military or police, visiting the family in the days and weeks before the shooting?

Really, that was the best. Military visiting an ordinary, middle-class suburban family? Starviego, you watch too much television. You should stick to watching nature documents.

"One neighbor said police cars arrived twice at Talovic's home in the past month, although police had no record of any arrests at the residence."

--neighbor to Sulejman Talovic, 18, Salt Lake City, Utah, alleged Trolley Square shopping mall shooter 2-12-07; 6 dead, 5 wounded

It would not surprise me at all if Auvinen had a much closer relationship to the local police than is now publicly being admitted.

[brindusa]

Starviego, you are something! I've tried to think about our "security". As I see it now, it was abusive power with a suitable infrastructure. I *really* don't think you could suggest that for the case you are interested in.