Dreaming about Finland...

[baris]

By the way, do you know if there is still the Finnish-Turkish society in Helsinki? If I dont get it wrong, they had some kind of office in Hameentie some years ago.

There is at least this Finland's Turks Association (Suomen turkkilaisten yhdistys ry) and they have a website (in Turkish only): http://www.finlandiyaturkdernegi.fi/ but I've never got in touch with them. I couldn't find out whether they have an office somewhere by browsing through their website.

[masao]

Thanks Hank.

I know there is a lot of grey in between but ... should I think that all what I've read, all what my friends have said is not true? All what I saw by myself?
Should I go on and try anyway? Should I live the experience by myself? Or should I keep the dream as a dream?

Oh, go on with your dream and make it come true.

t, masao

[toukokuu]

Dear Susan and Hank

About Hank W comments' below
"The high level of education - debatable. Lets say we have a very comprehensive and solid education system, its on the Gauss scale. The "good schools" are not that outstanding if compared to some real top ones in teh world, but pretty good. And the "bad schools" are good if compared to "bad schools" somewhere else."

Hank W, I ask you, how can you say that the good schools are not that outstanding if compared to some real top ones in the world. Who says, and based on what criteria, what are the top ones? Newspaper ranking lists, surveys, money talks, language (English governed world who ranks highly English speaking universities) or your personal experience?

I have comments on this issue, but would appreciate first your reply!

"And speaking your mind is considered rude in some cultures so not everyone likes it - especially at first. "

Here I agree with Susan more than with Hank. Definitely it is important to choose honesty before politeness. Sometimes polite behaviour and smiling is only a big lie, when you have hatred inside. I dont mean you should shout or show straight aggression, but speaking your mind, giving your opinion, or just saying no, is maturity in my opinion. Also, of personal experience, British people want to be polite and they give beautiful words and promises, but when you have acted on these promises, you see that part of them were lies. On the other hand, I have heard, that it is worse in the United States. I am not sure about Australia.

Susan, what is it that makes you not to feel home in Prague? Everyone who has been has liked it. They have only visited there, not lived there, however.

[Hank W.]

Hank W, I ask you, how can you say that the good schools are not that outstanding if compared to some real top ones in the world. Who says, and based on what criteria, what are the top ones?

You are seriously saying you can compare Harvard with HKK or LUT with MIT? Look at their budgets and student/professor ratios. Even in Europe - we don't need to go that far. Helsinki University is not doing badly at all though,
compared to the competition:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm (look at the first 100)

What I ment with the outstanding is that we miss the peaks. Then again for a small country we are doing damn good compared to the size of population and budgets.

[littlefrank]

>>>Anyway, he told us he had been asked a lot of times what kind of country Finland was by other foreigners. He said that whenever he was asked that question, he would reply, "take a desk globe and find out where Finland is located. That should tell you everything you need to know about Finland". <<<

Then he said go to California and shoot your class mates, take totally crap multiple choice exams, become obese and a couch potato watching 200 channels of mindless !"#¤% while your government cause more problems than they solve.

Of course you could watch the documentary 'Supersize me' but the message would probably be lost on you.

[toukokuu]

Dear Hank, thanks for giving the webpage for the ranking list.
Read here their criteria,

1. Ranking Criteria and Weights

"We rank universities by several indicators of academic or research performance, including alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, highly cited researchers, articles published in Nature and Science, articles in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index, and academic performance with respect to the size of an institution.

For each indicator, the highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. The distribution of data for each indicator is examined for any significant distorting effect; standard statistical techniques are used to adjust the indicator if necessary.

Scores for each indicator are weighted as shown below to arrive at a final overall score for an institution. The highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. The scores are then placed in descending order. An institution's rank reflects the number of institutions that sit above it.

Criteria Indicator Code Weight
Quality of Education Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Alumni 10%
Quality of Faculty Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Award 20%
Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories HiCi 20%
Research Output Articles published in Nature and Science* N&S 20%
Articles in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index SCI 20%
Size of Institution Academic performance with respect to the size of an institution Size 10%
Total 100% "
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Do you see that in the criteria above they do not say a lot about the quality of the basic teaching, especially undergraduate degrees. Or which of these criteria measures degree programmes? It is in this area Finland is very strong.

[/quote of Hank]
You are seriously saying you can compare Harvard with HKK or LUT with MIT? Look at their budgets and student/professor ratios. Even in Europe - we don't need to go that far. Helsinki University is not doing badly at all though,
compared to the competition:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm (look at the first 100)

Well, I am very seriously saying that. I have studied at an university which is on a medal place in the European ranking list. The programme was a big mess, and the students unhappy. Ouf of a group of ten, the ratios were something like that one interrupted, one gave up finally, one failed the degree but was fortunately given an opportunity to try again. The remaining passed, but I didnt learn a lot. The learning process was not monitored. I would say that this kind of programme would score very low in the quality assessments. Furthermore, we were treated badly, like small kids.

I read a friends master's degree dissertation from a small Finnish university, written in English. It was by all means better than any of the dissertations in this European top university I saw (even this reading was limited to my unit, though. In the name of honesty, I didnt see many of them, either). Additionally, I heard from a foreign student at the same top university, at their most famous units/departments, who neither was at all happy.

So, Hank where do we see the above mentioned issued ranked?

About the high quality of Finnish universities, or their programmes or
student material, tells also one personal experience. We had a guy running a course at the Helsinki university. He came from an American top university. After the course he told that he has never seen this high learning potential or quick progress before.

And about the scientific ranking, English speaking universities naturally have more publications in those journals used in ranking, which does not prove that the universties are better. They just have a favoured position for publishing. This language issue is also called publication bias (language bias), or is it?

quote/Hank:What I ment with the outstanding is that we miss the peaks. Then again for a small country we are doing damn good compared to the size of population and budgets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hank, we miss the peaks when using these specific criteria, but it does not prove that these criteria are those most valid for ranking. They are too narrow.

[Susan]

Susan, what is it that makes you not to feel home in Prague? Everyone who has been has liked it. They have only visited there, not lived there, however.

I have lived here for more than a year now. Everybody who comes to Prague likes it because it's a beautiful city, with plenty of pubs and cheap beer. Most of the people who come here want to have fun and drink as there is no tomorrow...Old Town Square and all those narrow and medieval streets are magical, they make you feel you are in a magical place. I was in love with Prague when I came here and went to Charles Bridge in the evening. The view of the Castle was beautiful. I think I'm still in love with that Prague, the magical Prague that keeps me living in a fairy tale...I never had the feeling I'm looking for, though...not even at the beginning.

Facing people every morning, having every day situations like going to a shop to buy something, asking for something, and so on, is a different story, then, you face the bad attitude most of the people have. It's not only me saying this. Other foreigners living here say the same. Some of them leave saying they had enough and some just stay for convenience, because it's cheap or because they feel "trapped" here, as an Australian guy said to me once. Time ago I tried to fall in love with the place again and I went for walks, to the nice places, where tourist go, went for a cup of tea, and to art galleries, I felt good when coming back home. The following day, when I faced people in the tram, having the usual bad attitude, what I had experienced the day before had no meaning to me any more...Living among people here is a different story than being just a tourist.

In Helsinki I went to places and pretended I was living there, asking the same things I ask here, and things were different. People didn't have that bad attitude that makes me sick here. The feeling was different. And as I said before, I had a feeling of inner peace and happiness that I've never had in Prague. If it happens that I move to Helsinki and then my feeling change, that's another story. I cannot stay in a place where I don't want to go out if I don't need to. and when I do so, I feel bad. Where I feel I'm in an aggressive environment and have to measure my words and guess what people mean to say when they are saying something else. It's so annoying and tiring...

I found this article quite interesting> after reading it, I understood a couple of situations I experienced, but I'm not willing to study a book to undertstand what people really mean to say when saying something different...
Living in a place is more than living in a beautiful place for tourists. Hope I answered to your question.

Communication
Communication issues between Czechs & Expats
Written by Terje B. Englund
Re-published with permission


Lots of foreigners who have come to the Czech Republic as managers of local companies tell the same story: after their first week in the job, they’re all pleasantly surprised by how eagerly and quickly their Czech employees carry out their directions.


However, within a month or two, most of them have a surprising revelation. Their subordinates, who overtly accepted all orders from the boss without a single word of protest or disagreement, have in reality done something completely different.
Such troubles can’t immediately be blamed on a language barrier. A foreigner and a Czech may both speak the same language flawlessly, but still have severe problems with communication. An extreme example is the Austrian military doctor who tried to diagnose The Good Soldier Švejk. After speaking with his patient for half an hour, he got so frustrated by the Czech’s evasive and confusing answers that he uttered the now classical sentence: ”Das ganze tschechisches Volk ist eine Simmulantenbande” – The entire Czech nation is a bunch of fakers!
This, of course, is both a coarse exaggeration and a literary generalization. Nevertheless, it’s not entirely without an element of truth (see: Jára Cimrman), because the Czechs generally communicate in a far more indirect and understated way than Western Europeans usually do.
To display strong emotions, for instance, be it raving anger or loud laughter, is often interpreted as proof of either mental instability or drunkenness (see: Alcoholics), and quite often, people say things that are only meant as an expression of courtesy.
A classic situation occurs when somebody invites you to his or her home and repeatedly insists that you don’t need to take your shoes off. This must under no circumstances be interpreted literally! The Czech is not saying that you are free to ruin his wall-to-wall carpet (see: Balkans) with doggy turd. He or she only wants to indicate a willingness to go to great lengths just to please a guest. Which they actually very often do – the Czechs may not be the fastest in the world to invite foreigners to their homes, but when they finally do, they tend to be extremely hospitable. Consequently, you are supposed to smile in a friendly way, and immediately take your shoes off.
The importance many Czechs attach to demonstrations of modesty (which should by no means be confused with real modesty) may also bring the foreigner into confusing situations. When a Czech is offered something, it’s considered blunt and ill-mannered to accept it without uttering something like Oh no, that’s too much, or Please, don’t make any special arrangements just for me. Again, this must not be interpreted literally. Afraid of being considered immodest or downright greedy, the Czech simply expects you to urge him or her to accept the offer with greater intensity.

This spectacle has been cultivated ad absurdum by Czech politicians. It’s almost unthinkable that he (yes, bar a few bright and thick-skinned ladies, they are all men) will say something like I am running for this or that position because I believe I’m the best. Instead, they will modestly point out that their personal ambitions are very, very small indeed, but that a lot of supporters want them to candidate, and, of course, it’s hard to let other people down, “so I’ll take the burden on my shoulders”.
How can a foreigner recognize that a Czech is doing or saying something just to express decorum? Unfortunately, there are no ironclad rules, but there are some clues – or rather patterns of accepted behaviour – you can cling to.
In addition to the widespread fear of giving an immodest impression, Czechs generally tend to avoid open confrontations. For instance, when somebody feels you have bothered him enough, he will – unless he’s a friend of yours – probably avoid saying something like Sorry, I have to go, or even worse, Sorry, I haven’t time to talk to you. Instead, he or she will use the fantastic Czech phrase Nebudu Vás už zdržovat (I don’t want to detain you), which actually might mean Bugger off; you’re wasting my time! Equally classic, when you ask a Czech something and the answer is To je na dlouhé povídání (That will be a long story), you are politely, but firmly, being asked to mind your own business.
Last, but not least: when communicating with a Czech, you should also remember that many people, because of their experience with the hard-hitting communist dictatorship, are still wary of sticking their necks out with a clear and unequivocal point of view. This, of course, doesn’t mean they don’t have strong opinions. There are few people on the planet who have such a rich history of anonymous denunciations as the Czechs, and local web debates are notoriously nasty.
The point is that many people tend to behave significantly differently when they’re accountable for their actions, and when they’re not. Admittedly, that’s quite human. The surprising thing, though, is the formidable spread of this phenomenon in the Czech Republic.
Take, for instance, the Czech Parliament’s election of Václav Havel’s successor as president in February 2003. Prior to the voting, all Social Democrats in the Chamber of Deputies solemnly declared that they would certainly vote for their party’s own candidate. But how did it turn out? Just to complicate life for the party’s chairman, almost 30 Social Democrats used their secret ballots to vote for the opposition’s candidate Václav Klaus, who subsequently won the presidential elections with a slight majority.
The Czechs are probably not more duplicitous than people elsewhere, but because of decorum, you should not take it for granted that a Czech really means yes when saying yes, or no when saying no. When it comes to sex, the old – and now pretty outdated – adage went that a woman, when answering no, actually meant maybe, and when saying maybe, indicated yes…
So, the only piece of advise that a foreigner can take is: look out for hints, don’t expect people to support anything controversial in public, and tune your social antenna to a frequency considerably higher than what’s used in Western Europe!


Terje B. Englund is a Norwegian journalist, writer and translator. Educated at the University in Oslo and the Institute of Slavonic Studies at Charles University, he has been based in Prague since 1993, covering Central and Eastern Europe for Scandinavian media. Englund is an affectionate cyclist, mountaineer and diver, and he also enjoys the company of his French bulldog, Gaston.

"Czechs in a Nutshell" can be bought via Internet at http://www.baset.cz and in some of the following stores: Luxor (Václavské nám.), Academia (Václavské nám/Národní Třída/Florenc), VD Konsorcium (Celetná ulice/Nový Smíchov), Vácha (Na Můstku), Kafkovo knihkupectví (Staroměstské nám.), Alchemy (at Tynska) and several more places in Prague visited by tourists.

[Susan]

Thanks for this link Hank>>>http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm (look at the first 100) ... It's very interesting to know how they rank Universities.

This discussion about the level of education and different universities is very interesting and useful I have to say.

What about the basic education? I don't have information regarding statistics and comparisons with other countries other that what I can see or know by talking to people in general and people I know or articles I have read about the basic education in Finland.
I would say that Finland has a high level of education and teachers are doing a good job. I am not very familiar with the system, though.
If you have a link to guide me and learn more about the education system I would appreciate it.

If we consider the learning and teaching of languages for example, let's say English, I know Finns study English at school before going to University and that's enough to have a good command of the language and it's good enough to go and study abroad and get their degrees in English Universities . As far as I know, students don't need to attend private lessons to pass the school exams and I would say Finns in general have a very good English in comparison with students from other countries after studying for the same number of years.

[ellierae]

I have been to Helsinki four times and then travelled all over Finland. I go again in January to a place called Yllas in Lapland. I have never been to Finland in the snow, I have been twice in summer and twice in autumm.
My dream is to have a house there and then to retire there in years to come.
We all have dreams and it is nice if you can make them come true.

[Hank W.]

If you have a link to guide me and learn more about the education system I would appreciate it.

well, the horse's mouth http://www.minedu.fi/minedu/education/index.html

I know Finns study English at school before going to University and that's enough to have a good command of the language and it's good enough to go and study abroad and get their degrees in English Universities . As far as I know, students don't need to attend private lessons to pass the school exams and I would say Finns in general have a very good English in comparison with students from other countries after studying for the same number of years.

Well, a few things:
- no illusions of grandeur; we know if we step out of the borders we have to communicate in the lingua franca which in modern times is English.
- they pound the grammar into you.. don't know if it is the same around but they emphasise a lot of reading comprehension and writing in Finnish schools.
- oh, and tv is subtitled so you get "immersed" quite a bit...

[toukokuu]

Dear Susan,

Thanks for little more background about your country. Unfortunately, never been there yet. Certainly the former Soviet influences have a part to play in your country's current "climate". One solution, if economy is not the problem, is to live in 2 countries. For example, at the moment there are a lot of cheap rural primary schools on market in Finland. However, the cheap ones are in isolated places. Our minister of culture, Tanja Karpela, bought a big former school for her leisure home. And for Ellierae, hope that your dream of a house in FInland will come true.
I also would like to retire to Finnish countryside, having a house of my own and lake nearby or even a lake of my own.
We just do not know if we still are here or if terrorists or tsunamis have changed everything, our peaceful plans of harmonious retirement.

Susan, in your country, you have very good authors, and thats one reason I have appreciated your country. You are kind of interesting person, and hope that you will find your place in the world, whether in Finland or elsewhere. I think this kind of forum is excellent for changing experiences and opinions, and possibly for making friends.

[toukokuu]

What do think about this?

Mr President, our highly appreciated George W. Bush graduated from the Yale University, which is on the 11th / and respective 9th place on the global and American ranking lists. His daughter, Barbara has also graduated from Yale. I have to check if this was the case with Mr Senior President. However, Jenna Bush studied at the University of Texas.

How many do still believe that these ranking lists are valid?How in the world was Mr Bush accepted in the first place to the Yale University, when he might even have difficulty to pass secondary school or high school ( sixth form) in Finland?

How come did he come in to Yale??????????????????? Incredible. Someone did the tests for him, or paid the money?
Or , Yale is little more than a high school, finally.

[Susan]

We all have dreams and it is nice if you can make them come true.

Hi ellierae,
Seems like you really like Finland. Lapland has to be nice in winter. Yes, cold...but isn't snow beautiful?

Yep. We all have Dreams and we should always do our best to make them come true/ after all ...

...Life is a Dream.

I wish you the best, go and follow your dream.

[pihlaja]

What do think about this?

Mr President, our highly appreciated George W. Bush graduated from the Yale University, which is on the 11th / and respective 9th place on the global and American ranking lists. His daughter, Barbara has also graduated from Yale. I have to check if this was the case with Mr Senior President. However, Jenna Bush studied at the University of Texas.

How many do still believe that these ranking lists are valid?How in the world was Mr Bush accepted in the first place to the Yale University, when he might even have difficulty to pass secondary school or high school ( sixth form) in Finland?

How come did he come in to Yale??????????????????? Incredible. Someone did the tests for him, or paid the money?
Or , Yale is little more than a high school, finally.

His family went to Yale and they had money--lots of it.

That's how it works with many Ivy League schools here in the states. You don't really need the grades to go if your family has a history of going to that university and they have the money to get you there--because stars forbid Yale or Harvard (etc.) hand out too many scholarships!

It's sad, but true. Connections and money will get you far in many places in the world--but especially in America.

[pierrot]

What do think about this?

Mr President, our highly appreciated George W. Bush graduated from the Yale University, which is on the 11th / and respective 9th place on the global and American ranking lists. His daughter, Barbara has also graduated from Yale. I have to check if this was the case with Mr Senior President. However, Jenna Bush studied at the University of Texas.

How many do still believe that these ranking lists are valid?How in the world was Mr Bush accepted in the first place to the Yale University, when he might even have difficulty to pass secondary school or high school ( sixth form) in Finland?

How come did he come in to Yale??????????????????? Incredible. Someone did the tests for him, or paid the money?
Or , Yale is little more than a high school, finally.

If daddy has influence and studied there too, its no problem for the kids to go to yale. Make a generous donation and no matter how 'smart' your child is, he will get into almost any US college.